What do full steps REALLY look like?

[musospuso]

"Full Bands".............................
You really need to read and study the glossary of numismatic terms!

Here is a site with the glossary of numismatic terms

404 page not found

This (https://conecaonline.org/master-number-list-philosophy/) page has some stuff but it seems more CONECA-centric than general Numismatic terms.

[Earle42]

Holy Moly those are awesome pics!

And also, wtheck! Seems way more experienced than I have been just as confused so that's depressing. But also, comforting in a way.

Appreciate the feedback, that really helps a lot and I *think* I have a slightly better footing when it comes to FS...now what's this FB stuff over here..........................................

Sorry if you have already read what I am beginning to call my "Inside Guide to Grading Companies." Its a lengthy copy paste I have been thanked for numerous times.
If you have seen it, skip it. If not, it is below. I am thinking it relevant in this case:


Here is a reality check about grading companies vs. what people coming into the hobby just assume about them b/c of seeing so many slabbed coins being sold. Reading this will help you make better educated decisions concerning these companies and your hard earned cash.:

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Here is some beginners fishing tackle. Its worth your time to read.


Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.


Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.

Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:

a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality its normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed and paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders

Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies

Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors incorrectly.

Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.

Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. ANACs does not have all these fees though.


You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.


And…if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!"

[musospuso]

Oof...Being from IT, it'd be neat if we could bring more data-driven, AI-assisted, open source governed frameworks to the grading game. Make it less about profit (AI, crowdsourced/funded open-source software that is a non-profit perhaps?) and more about the hard facts.

[Earle42]

Daniel has started this with someone else using AI where they sampled already graded Morgans to have the machine learn what the overall "average" humans had assigned to each grade. I do not know what stage the project is in.

However, I have speculated an iPhone app. could be made rather simply if the right programmer who knows the iPhone would do it.

The iPhone samples 30,000 data points for facial recognition in a fraction of a second. It relies on infra red which would be important for coins b/c lighting problems would be alleviated when taking a picture of a coin.

Those 30,000 data points can tell an iPhone if its user is the one picking it up despite changes like glasses, haircuts, mustaches etc. It certainly could be given an algorithm (made public domain for transparency) to mathematically compute surface damage, wear on high points, etc. and come up with a consistent grade every time. This type of grade was given with the computer grading systems the companies developed (at great cost) and then abandoned in the 90s. It may be one reason for abandoning the better system (as they called it when marketing it) when all other companies were integrating computers is that the grading companies were killing their own slab-&-re-slab-game profits people play trying to get higher grades on the same coin.

I say its past time for this. And I honestly think a 1.00 app on the app store could be made.

I used to teach programming when computers were new to the home and in schools, so everything I know is too old to accomplish this type of project, and and I have too much else going on to try to learn the iPhone system from the ground up. I understand the logic behind how it would work, but don;t know the language, the formatting, the hardware etc.

I look forward to the day for the sake of people who have been taken for a ride by the current system.

It would be great to let the iPhone see it and have an instantaneous grade that everyone would get all the time.

Any takers musospuso?

I can see it bring fought by those who have paid so very much into slabbed coins b/c the Beanie Baby effect would kick in.

[musospuso]

Daniel has started this with someone else using AI where they sampled already graded Morgans to have the machine learn what the overall "average" humans had assigned to each grade. I do not know what stage the project is in.

However, I have speculated an iPhone app. could be made rather simply if the right programmer who knows the iPhone would do it.

The iPhone samples 30,000 data points for facial recognition in a fraction of a second. It relies on infra red which would be important for coins b/c lighting problems would be alleviated when taking a picture of a coin.

Those 30,000 data points can tell an iPhone if its user is the one picking it up despite changes like glasses, haircuts, mustaches etc. It certainly could be given an algorithm (made public domain for transparency) to mathematically compute surface damage, wear on high points, etc. and come up with a consistent grade every time. This type of grade was given with the computer grading systems the companies developed (at great cost) and then abandoned in the 90s. It may be one reason for abandoning the better system (as they called it when marketing it) when all other companies were integrating computers is that the grading companies were killing their own slab-&-re-slab-game profits people play trying to get higher grades on the same coin.

I say its past time for this. And I honestly think a 1.00 app on the app store could be made.

I used to teach programming when computers were new to the home and in schools, so everything I know is too old to accomplish this type of project, and and I have too much else going on to try to learn the iPhone system from the ground up. I understand the logic behind how it would work, but don;t know the language, the formatting, the hardware etc.

I look forward to the day for the sake of people who have been taken for a ride by the current system.

It would be great to let the iPhone see it and have an instantaneous grade that everyone would get all the time.

Any takers musospuso?

I can see it bring fought by those who have paid so very much into slabbed coins b/c the Beanie Baby effect would kick in.

I am an architect so could easily design the system but I am not a coder unfortunately. However I do know a physicist who knows other people that could probably get the science part of it done (AI, Infrared, etc.), it's just a matter of that "last mile" coding part. Would need to know native programming for speed, Machine Learning, Big Data. It's a pretty big ask especially if trying to ultimately make it affordable and accessible. I would like the grading algorithms to be open source but the app implementation could be commercial to cover costs. Sounds like Daniel has already made some traction on this, I wonder where they are or what else needs to be accomplished, what gaps there may be to get where we're talking about.

EDIT: Thinking aloud, there would be major headwinds from the TPGs who basically would be put out of business though if they're smart and could adapt with Value-Added services (like neat slabbing or generating an official NFT of some kind). The coins after being graded by the app could be given an NFT which would pass along with the coin from owner to owner giving it extra (though affordably generated) value. I think the way the grading needs to be done definitely should be open source and open to contribution from all Numismatic experts in the world to arrive at an algorithm (really a group of many algorithms per coin series) that objectively grades a coin with the utmost security and reliability every time. Could even tell if coins have been washed or give advice about "restoring" the coin or what can be done to improve the grade without damaging or recommending to take it to a professional, etc. Maintain a DB of populations and update in real time. I would love if the app was actually a Web 3.0 app. Could never be taken down and the data shape lends itself to such a framework. Let the data be free and known to all! No more shadow cabals of weird shrouded wizard priests greedily "protecting" the sacred knowledge.

[Earle42]

You can ask Daniel what is happening with the system he was working on.

Daniels approach was, as I said, taking already graded pieces and letting the AI determine what a human sees generally as any specific grade.

The their approach would simply be based upon scanning and recording data and deviations from perfect conditions.

This type of thing was being used in the Girard Plastics Company in Lake City, PA where I worked many years ago (early 90s). The machine they had allowed a part to be put onto its stage where the operator would see it magnified on a large screen. To program it to "grade" a part, the operator would use controls to move it and have the machine take measurements to check for tolerances - as many data points as needed. Once one part was done, another of the same kind could be put on the stage and the machine then would auto scan that part and give a report. The resolution and tolerances measured were well beyond what would ever be needed for coins. The program for each part was saved to be used in the future.

Having experienced this, I understand why the coin companies abandoned their computer and scanning systems. I would not even be surprised if they had a similar machine/setup back then. The same part checked out (micron levels) the same every time it was scanned for the exact measurements.

So what were now antique (!) and 30 years old machines were capable of this type of grading.

Again, I think the iPhone could be programmed to do the same thing. Since it can recognizes faces at an angle (again - 30,000 data points!), no doubt it would recognize and be able to consistently grade any coin.

The parts were evaluated in the QC department independent of human input. In much easier terms, if a calibrated scale says something weighs a 1.42 pounds, then it weighs 1.42 pounds no matter what the person working the scale might say/think/believe.

Personally I do not see this being all that complex of an idea if a person knew how the iPhone data collection worked and what coding language to use. The data massaging in the program would be the bulk of the program seeing as there would be so much data collected.

In fact I think even the data collected could be lessened b/c, as it is, the hobby is just fine with examination of coins with maximum 10X loupe. While the phone might give the ability to measure down to the micron, the human eye, not being able to see this level of accuracy would make it impractical to go this far.

An example of an algorithm concept would be, for example, the program would take the data from the field areas and note the hits/dents (likely even depth is used for facial recognition) in the fields and compute a percentage of damage compared to flawless fields (represented by an absolute value). Wear on designs would be assessed by the data collected from how each raised item on the coin varied from its corresponding item in an ideal* data set. Just numbers and actual data - this could be the standard just like it was in the QC department, and how it is used in manufacturing all the time.

BTW "*ideal data set" as used above could even possibly be based upon actual data scanned from coin dies. If the dies are not available, then there would be some human "fudging" involved by finding the best extant graded specimens and averaging their measurements for an "ideal" set.

Personally, the more I see the grading companies and what they actually have done to the hobby (not good!), the more I would like something like this to legitimize the coin hobby's grading system.

[Daniel]

It's not the coding that is the issue here, we have a working and ground-floor system but lack the funds it would take to complete it. Good programmers cost big money.

[DSCoins]

Let's try this again...
https://conecaonline.org/glossary-of-er ... ety-terms/

[mikev50]

[musospuso]

Let's try this again...
https://conecaonline.org/glossary-of-er ... ety-terms/

Suweeeeeeet, awesome, thank you!

[musospuso]

JEFFaFS.jpg

YES! YES! This is what I'm talking about! So freakin' awesome!

[Earle42]

Great chart!


- Do you have a reference to where this was taken from PCGS officially? I would like it for reference.

As the pics Coop had show (that I posted) show, PCGS does not seem to stick to this standard when grading though.