What do full steps REALLY look like?

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musospuso
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What do full steps REALLY look like?

#1 Unread post by musospuso »

EDIT: Just found this: https://coinauctionshelp.com/jefferson- ... e-5fs-6fs/ article posted here. Actually explains the 5 vs 6 steps a bit better--so the first step, the thickest one typically is counted but not the last step or what would be the ground level of the monument.

Looking through 2022 Jefferson nickels recently on the hunt for Full Steps examples I realized I wasn't 100% sure what I was looking for. I would always have doubts of some kind or another. So I wanted to post here to see if I could get a better idea of what to look for and become more confident in my search.

To begin with, I have read this oft-cited article at PCGS: https://www.pcgs.com/news/tips-from-the ... oom-part-3

The problem with this article and others is it shows pictures but doesn't address ambiguity well with a clear description. For example, the following is not clear to me:

How many steps are there (I see 6 but 5 are often mentioned)?
Are we talking about the block (the area between lines) of step or the landing line (what a person IRL would put their foot on)?
Is 5 out of 6 "intact" steps OK? What's the definition of "intact"?
Do milk spots on the steps ruin the FS designation?

To whit, the attached example(s) having me go back and forth to, yes it's FS, to, no it's not FS. There are unbroken "lines" (the platform or where a foot would step IRL) but the step blocks (usually 1 or 6) has various dings and marks but do not necessarily break the lines.

In addition to the aforementioned questions, which of these examples would be FS (let's pretend they're high enough grade to qualify for that in the first place, I realize that may not actually be the case) and why or why not?
Attachments
5C-2022-D-obverse-FS_example-1-cropped.JPG
5C-2022-D-reverse-FS_example-1-cropped.JPG
5C-2022-D-detail-FS_example-1.JPG
5C-2022-D-obverse-FS_example-2-cropped.JPG
5C-2022-D-reverse-FS_example-2-cropped.JPG
5C-2022-D-detail-FS_example-2.JPG
5C-2022-D-obverse-FS_example-3-cropped.JPG
5C-2022-D-reverse-FS_example-3-cropped.JPG
5C-2022-D-detail-FS_example-3.JPG

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#2 Unread post by Earle42 »

Easy answer...it depends on how good the coffee in the office was on that specific day.

Full answer:
I wish this was easy to answer!

In the opinion of this mere mortal, the FS designation is yet another area place where (High Salute please) "THE Experts" of the grading companies show inconsistencies.

Although at least with the FS designations graders make it seem like they have a verifiable standard. So let's examine that standard using their own words, shall we?

First, as the PCGS website says FS nickels are,"
"nickels that have at least five separated steps (lines) at the base of Monticello."

Well, we have to be technical here to understand what is going on with their description: There are no actual steps in the design, per se, on a Jefferson nickel. The area representing steps is made of alternating raised and sunken...here it comes...lines.

So now it is as clear as mud! PCGS counts the...um...lines...

But the area of the design which represents steps is made up of two kinds of line: sunken and raised lines.

So, PCGS, which "lines" are the "lines" you count to determine an FS designation?

Shhhhhh! :shhh: ...PCGS never says anything about this.

But the logical mind says, "PCGS said 'steps' so they are counting the raised lines."

Uh uh.

And I actually I doubt their graders know whether sunken or raised lines are what to count as well.

So once again in this post I, a mere mortal, make a bold accusative statement against (High Salute please) "THE Experts" whose dwelling place is the legendary Mount Olympus of Numismatic-dom!

But to back this (well nigh heretical) statement up, I am thankful I can rely upon the work of another mere mortal who is on a higher numismatic plain than myself..

One of the people whose opinions I greatly respect in this hobby, Coop, has done a study using actual slabbed PCGS FS designation nickels. He was also trying to figure out the same mystery the OP has posted.

In a nutshell...Coop's conclusion is,
"This makes no sense to me. So I'm not even interested in these. So I don't waste my time with these. They are not die varieties, but full strikes, I guess. Moving on from this."

If you know the full breadth of Coop's knowledge and influence in teaching other numismatists, this carries a lot of weight.

After examining FS slabs and pics on the PCGS website Coop's conclusions which best matched up the coin to the FS labels were:
1. PCGS counts from the bottom up.
2. If you count the sunken lines which represent the step "risers" (the vertical portion of each step) then you come out with more of the actual number of unbroken "lines" showing up on slabs with FS designations.
1984-P_JN_full_steps_HOW_TO_TELL_AAB.jpg

And yet...
FS designations on slabs ALSO show PCGS graders sometimes must be counting the raised lines (steps) instead. Sometimes the raised lines have a hit mark which interrupts the line, and the nickel misses an FS on the slab!

Coop put up a graphic/quiz made from pics from1878-D PCGS slabbed nickels. He asked which of the following, A through F, were graded by PCGS as FS?
(((N1978-D_NORMAL_-_FULL_STEPS_WHICH_AAA.jpg
Scroll down for the answer






















All but B are slabbed as FS.
See why Coop gave up?
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#3 Unread post by Daniel »

Full steps don't mean much on most Jefferson nickels, it must grade very high as well. Most modern Jefferson nickels tend to have full steps with contact marks but they're struck better than in the past. I can tell you all day long it's FS or it's not then you send it off and get a different opinion, so it's not just as easy as asking people in a group or forum.

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#4 Unread post by Paul »

I believe it is called..........MARKETING !!!
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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#5 Unread post by Earle42 »

Absotively and posilutely...I agree.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#6 Unread post by musospuso »

Holy Moly those are awesome pics!

And also, wtheck! Seems way more experienced than I have been just as confused so that's depressing. But also, comforting in a way.

Appreciate the feedback, that really helps a lot and I *think* I have a slightly better footing when it comes to FS...now what's this FB stuff over here..........................................

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#7 Unread post by oldbearjames »

“I believe it is called..........MARKETING !!!”
Not just for Jefferson Nickels and “PCGs”, but for many different types of magnifying eye glasses!

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#8 Unread post by Paul »

musospuso wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:57 pm Holy Moly those are awesome pics!

And also, wtheck! Seems way more experienced than I have been just as confused so that's depressing. But also, comforting in a way.

Appreciate the feedback, that really helps a lot and I *think* I have a slightly better footing when it comes to FS...now what's this FB stuff over here..........................................
"Full Bands".............................
You really need to read and study the glossary of numismatic terms!
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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#9 Unread post by musospuso »

Paul wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:16 am
musospuso wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:57 pm Holy Moly those are awesome pics!

And also, wtheck! Seems way more experienced than I have been just as confused so that's depressing. But also, comforting in a way.

Appreciate the feedback, that really helps a lot and I *think* I have a slightly better footing when it comes to FS...now what's this FB stuff over here..........................................
"Full Bands".............................
You really need to read and study the glossary of numismatic terms!
I was just trying to make a funny about the absurdity around these terms vis-a-vis FS. "Trying" being the operative word, lol.

That being said, do you have some links/suggestions for the best Numismatic terms pages/blogs/sites/books?

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#10 Unread post by DSCoins »

Paul wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:16 am
"Full Bands".............................
You really need to read and study the glossary of numismatic terms!

Here is a site with the glossary of numismatic terms
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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#11 Unread post by musospuso »

DSCoins wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:35 pm
Paul wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 11:16 am
"Full Bands".............................
You really need to read and study the glossary of numismatic terms!

Here is a site with the glossary of numismatic terms
404 page not found :cry:

This (https://conecaonline.org/master-number-list-philosophy/) page has some stuff but it seems more CONECA-centric than general Numismatic terms.

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#12 Unread post by Earle42 »

musospuso wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 9:57 pm Holy Moly those are awesome pics!

And also, wtheck! Seems way more experienced than I have been just as confused so that's depressing. But also, comforting in a way.

Appreciate the feedback, that really helps a lot and I *think* I have a slightly better footing when it comes to FS...now what's this FB stuff over here..........................................
Sorry if you have already read what I am beginning to call my "Inside Guide to Grading Companies." Its a lengthy copy paste I have been thanked for numerous times.
If you have seen it, skip it. If not, it is below. I am thinking it relevant in this case:


Here is a reality check about grading companies vs. what people coming into the hobby just assume about them b/c of seeing so many slabbed coins being sold. Reading this will help you make better educated decisions concerning these companies and your hard earned cash.😊:

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Here is some beginners fishing tackle. Its worth your time to read.


Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.


Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.

Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:

a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality its normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed and paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders

Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies

Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors incorrectly.

Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.

Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. ANACs does not have all these fees though.


You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.


And…if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!" 😊
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#13 Unread post by musospuso »

Oof...Being from IT, it'd be neat if we could bring more data-driven, AI-assisted, open source governed frameworks to the grading game. Make it less about profit (AI, crowdsourced/funded open-source software that is a non-profit perhaps?) and more about the hard facts.

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#14 Unread post by Earle42 »

Daniel has started this with someone else using AI where they sampled already graded Morgans to have the machine learn what the overall "average" humans had assigned to each grade. I do not know what stage the project is in.

However, I have speculated an iPhone app. could be made rather simply if the right programmer who knows the iPhone would do it.

The iPhone samples 30,000 data points for facial recognition in a fraction of a second. It relies on infra red which would be important for coins b/c lighting problems would be alleviated when taking a picture of a coin.

Those 30,000 data points can tell an iPhone if its user is the one picking it up despite changes like glasses, haircuts, mustaches etc. It certainly could be given an algorithm (made public domain for transparency) to mathematically compute surface damage, wear on high points, etc. and come up with a consistent grade every time. This type of grade was given with the computer grading systems the companies developed (at great cost) and then abandoned in the 90s. It may be one reason for abandoning the better system (as they called it when marketing it) when all other companies were integrating computers is that the grading companies were killing their own slab-&-re-slab-game profits people play trying to get higher grades on the same coin.

I say its past time for this. And I honestly think a 1.00 app on the app store could be made.

I used to teach programming when computers were new to the home and in schools, so everything I know is too old to accomplish this type of project, and and I have too much else going on to try to learn the iPhone system from the ground up. I understand the logic behind how it would work, but don;t know the language, the formatting, the hardware etc.

I look forward to the day for the sake of people who have been taken for a ride by the current system.

It would be great to let the iPhone see it and have an instantaneous grade that everyone would get all the time.

Any takers musospuso?

I can see it bring fought by those who have paid so very much into slabbed coins b/c the Beanie Baby effect would kick in.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#15 Unread post by musospuso »

Earle42 wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 7:32 pm Daniel has started this with someone else using AI where they sampled already graded Morgans to have the machine learn what the overall "average" humans had assigned to each grade. I do not know what stage the project is in.

However, I have speculated an iPhone app. could be made rather simply if the right programmer who knows the iPhone would do it.

The iPhone samples 30,000 data points for facial recognition in a fraction of a second. It relies on infra red which would be important for coins b/c lighting problems would be alleviated when taking a picture of a coin.

Those 30,000 data points can tell an iPhone if its user is the one picking it up despite changes like glasses, haircuts, mustaches etc. It certainly could be given an algorithm (made public domain for transparency) to mathematically compute surface damage, wear on high points, etc. and come up with a consistent grade every time. This type of grade was given with the computer grading systems the companies developed (at great cost) and then abandoned in the 90s. It may be one reason for abandoning the better system (as they called it when marketing it) when all other companies were integrating computers is that the grading companies were killing their own slab-&-re-slab-game profits people play trying to get higher grades on the same coin.

I say its past time for this. And I honestly think a 1.00 app on the app store could be made.

I used to teach programming when computers were new to the home and in schools, so everything I know is too old to accomplish this type of project, and and I have too much else going on to try to learn the iPhone system from the ground up. I understand the logic behind how it would work, but don;t know the language, the formatting, the hardware etc.

I look forward to the day for the sake of people who have been taken for a ride by the current system.

It would be great to let the iPhone see it and have an instantaneous grade that everyone would get all the time.

Any takers musospuso?

I can see it bring fought by those who have paid so very much into slabbed coins b/c the Beanie Baby effect would kick in.
I am an architect so could easily design the system but I am not a coder unfortunately. However I do know a physicist who knows other people that could probably get the science part of it done (AI, Infrared, etc.), it's just a matter of that "last mile" coding part. Would need to know native programming for speed, Machine Learning, Big Data. It's a pretty big ask especially if trying to ultimately make it affordable and accessible. I would like the grading algorithms to be open source but the app implementation could be commercial to cover costs. Sounds like Daniel has already made some traction on this, I wonder where they are or what else needs to be accomplished, what gaps there may be to get where we're talking about.

EDIT: Thinking aloud, there would be major headwinds from the TPGs who basically would be put out of business though if they're smart and could adapt with Value-Added services (like neat slabbing or generating an official NFT of some kind). The coins after being graded by the app could be given an NFT which would pass along with the coin from owner to owner giving it extra (though affordably generated) value. I think the way the grading needs to be done definitely should be open source and open to contribution from all Numismatic experts in the world to arrive at an algorithm (really a group of many algorithms per coin series) that objectively grades a coin with the utmost security and reliability every time. Could even tell if coins have been washed or give advice about "restoring" the coin or what can be done to improve the grade without damaging or recommending to take it to a professional, etc. Maintain a DB of populations and update in real time. I would love if the app was actually a Web 3.0 app. Could never be taken down and the data shape lends itself to such a framework. Let the data be free and known to all! No more shadow cabals of weird shrouded wizard priests greedily "protecting" the sacred knowledge.

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#16 Unread post by Earle42 »

You can ask Daniel what is happening with the system he was working on.

Daniels approach was, as I said, taking already graded pieces and letting the AI determine what a human sees generally as any specific grade.

The their approach would simply be based upon scanning and recording data and deviations from perfect conditions.

This type of thing was being used in the Girard Plastics Company in Lake City, PA where I worked many years ago (early 90s). The machine they had allowed a part to be put onto its stage where the operator would see it magnified on a large screen. To program it to "grade" a part, the operator would use controls to move it and have the machine take measurements to check for tolerances - as many data points as needed. Once one part was done, another of the same kind could be put on the stage and the machine then would auto scan that part and give a report. The resolution and tolerances measured were well beyond what would ever be needed for coins. The program for each part was saved to be used in the future.

Having experienced this, I understand why the coin companies abandoned their computer and scanning systems. I would not even be surprised if they had a similar machine/setup back then. The same part checked out (micron levels) the same every time it was scanned for the exact measurements.

So what were now antique (!) and 30 years old machines were capable of this type of grading.

Again, I think the iPhone could be programmed to do the same thing. Since it can recognizes faces at an angle (again - 30,000 data points!), no doubt it would recognize and be able to consistently grade any coin.

The parts were evaluated in the QC department independent of human input. In much easier terms, if a calibrated scale says something weighs a 1.42 pounds, then it weighs 1.42 pounds no matter what the person working the scale might say/think/believe.

Personally I do not see this being all that complex of an idea if a person knew how the iPhone data collection worked and what coding language to use. The data massaging in the program would be the bulk of the program seeing as there would be so much data collected.

In fact I think even the data collected could be lessened b/c, as it is, the hobby is just fine with examination of coins with maximum 10X loupe. While the phone might give the ability to measure down to the micron, the human eye, not being able to see this level of accuracy would make it impractical to go this far.

An example of an algorithm concept would be, for example, the program would take the data from the field areas and note the hits/dents (likely even depth is used for facial recognition) in the fields and compute a percentage of damage compared to flawless fields (represented by an absolute value). Wear on designs would be assessed by the data collected from how each raised item on the coin varied from its corresponding item in an ideal* data set. Just numbers and actual data - this could be the standard just like it was in the QC department, and how it is used in manufacturing all the time.

BTW "*ideal data set" as used above could even possibly be based upon actual data scanned from coin dies. If the dies are not available, then there would be some human "fudging" involved by finding the best extant graded specimens and averaging their measurements for an "ideal" set.

Personally, the more I see the grading companies and what they actually have done to the hobby (not good!), the more I would like something like this to legitimize the coin hobby's grading system.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#17 Unread post by Daniel »

It's not the coding that is the issue here, we have a working and ground-floor system but lack the funds it would take to complete it. Good programmers cost big money.

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#18 Unread post by DSCoins »

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#19 Unread post by mikev50 »

JEFFaFS.jpg

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#20 Unread post by musospuso »

DSCoins wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 6:03 pm Let's try this again...
https://conecaonline.org/glossary-of-er ... ety-terms/
Suweeeeeeet, awesome, thank you!

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#21 Unread post by musospuso »

mikev50 wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 7:45 pmJEFFaFS.jpg
YES! YES! This is what I'm talking about! So freakin' awesome!

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Re: What do full steps REALLY look like?

#22 Unread post by Earle42 »

Great chart!
:thumbsup:

- Do you have a reference to where this was taken from PCGS officially? I would like it for reference.

As the pics Coop had show (that I posted) show, PCGS does not seem to stick to this standard when grading though.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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