1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

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RevElvisLee
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#11 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

So, this thread obviously came a little unraveled... 😂

If I could swing back around to my original inquiry, does anyone have an opinion about whether it's better to cross-over a coin or to crack it out? If you've had experience with both, I'd be interested to know what method has worked better for you, or what your preference is.
Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#12 Unread post by Earle42 »

My fault - the Gucci label concept you came up with was too much for me to let go LOL!

Anyway...I have no experience with this. But from an outsider looking in, all I see is gamble no matter what. We all would hope it would get the good grade, but just no way to know how bad the coffee in the office will be that day for the graders.

Wondering if you did crack it out and they don't give the grade if ANACs might, which would be a lot less expensive and maybe back to square 1 without the Gucci label.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#13 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:13 pm My fault - the Gucci label concept you came up with was too much for me to let go LOL!

Anyway...I have no experience with this. But from an outsider looking in, all I see is gamble no matter what. We all would hope it would get the good grade, but just no way to know how bad the coffee in the office will be that day for the graders.

Wondering if you did crack it out and they don't give the grade if ANACs might, which would be a lot less expensive and maybe back to square 1 without the Gucci label.
LOL. If I had the luxury of keeping it for myself (I'll get there someday!), I'd just leave it be. But I'm trying to grow my eBay store, pay my rent, and occasionally stash away the odd shiny bauble here and there. Anyway, it's not a terribly big gamble, seeing as I only paid $265 for it. If PCGS knocked it down a grade and a half, I'd still be in okay shape. It would be nice to get a win every once in awhile, though! 👍
Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#14 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

I'm also raising a 12 yr old son on my own, so I'm trying to be smart about the way I do this. That's a big reason I'm always bugging you guys with so many annoying questions. :ugeek:
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#15 Unread post by Earle42 »

RevElvisLee wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:28 pm I'm also raising a 12 yr old son on my own, so I'm trying to be smart about the way I do this. That's a big reason I'm always bugging you guys with so many annoying questions. :ugeek:
And we are here to help people who legitimately want to know about coins...so its not bugging! Its part of our hobby :)

Let us know what happens.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#16 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:13 pm My fault - the Gucci label concept you came up with was too much for me to let go LOL!

Anyway...I have no experience with this. But from an outsider looking in, all I see is gamble no matter what. We all would hope it would get the good grade, but just no way to know how bad the coffee in the office will be that day for the graders.

Wondering if you did crack it out and they don't give the grade if ANACs might, which would be a lot less expensive and maybe back to square 1 without the Gucci label.
You know, it just occurred to me. As ridiculous as I find the whole concept of CAC stickers on coins that have already been graded, the ONE area where they could actually be a useful service instead of a scam is to certify that the grades are correct on an ICG slab or old ANACS soapbar holder. They won't touch either one - I wonder why. It kind of makes you think... :think:
Just my two cents...
Steve
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#17 Unread post by Earle42 »

I have a feeling, since I always root for the underdog anyway (as well as have been accused of alway thinking outside the box), that the PCGS and NGC labels get more attention for the same reason so many other "brands" of ___________ (fill in the blank) seem to appeal to the masses people.

People have to pay more to use PCGS and NGC. so, as the human mindset goes, it HAS to be a better service. And the more money they pour into these companies, well then, of course the more ridiculous the other companies become. I am not saying this is a conscious happening either. Marketers know and love this phenomenon of the human condition.

A parallel is on this and other coin forums. Mr. Ima Newbie comes to coin forums seeking free expert advice, is told his coin is just damaged, and all of a sudden Mr. Newbie is elevated in his own eyes to being a lot smarter than the people he originally came to for expert advise as he explains to them why he DOES have a valuable error coin.

Yet Mr. Newbie automatically thinks it would be a hanging offense to question the writing on a slab. No matter how much fact you can show him to the contrary.

So what would it do to CAC's business if they would (stoop to) labeling the other (lesser) company slabs? BTW - I am not saying CAC is a snob (its a business - not a person). A business will do whatever they deem will advance their profits. CAC has PCGS and NGC people in their pocket and make good money off of this. I can see at present where labeling the psychologically mis-perceived "lesser" slabs may hurt the CAC business model.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#18 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:41 am I have a feeling, since I always root for the underdog anyway (as well as have been accused of alway thinking outside the box), that the PCGS and NGC labels get more attention for the same reason so many other "brands" of ___________ (fill in the blank) seem to appeal to the masses people.

People have to pay more to use PCGS and NGC. so, as the human mindset goes, it HAS to be a better service. And the more money they pour into these companies, well then, of course the more ridiculous the other companies become. I am not saying this is a conscious happening either. Marketers know and love this phenomenon of the human condition.

A parallel is on this and other coin forums. Mr. Ima Newbie comes to coin forums seeking free expert advice, is told his coin is just damaged, and all of a sudden Mr. Newbie is elevated in his own eyes to being a lot smarter than the people he originally came to for expert advise as he explains to them why he DOES have a valuable error coin.

Yet Mr. Newbie automatically thinks it would be a hanging offense to question the writing on a slab. No matter how much fact you can show him to the contrary.

So what would it do to CAC's business if they would (stoop to) labeling the other (lesser) company slabs? BTW - I am not saying CAC is a snob (its a business - not a person). A business will do whatever they deem will advance their profits. CAC has PCGS and NGC people in their pocket and make good money off of this. I can see at present where labeling the psychologically mis-perceived "lesser" slabs may hurt the CAC business model.
I know what you're saying, and I agree with you. If CAC serves a useful and legitimate purpose (besides putting the Blaupunkt in your Bentley, so to speak), it's to verify that your coin was not overgraded, right? So in my way of thinking, the fact that they will only do so for NGC and PCGS proves to me that they're not concerned with verifying a coin has received a proper grade, but rather boosting the values of NGC/PCGS holdered coins with no regard to the collector at all. My comment was sort of an off-the-cuff observation of how I thought they could be better and more useful, but I was looking at it all wrong. They make no pretense of being and unbiased 2nd opinion, do they?

Man... the more I learn about how this market works, the steeper the mountain looms.
Just my two cents...
Steve
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#19 Unread post by Paul »

"Man... the more I learn about how this market works, the steeper the mountain looms."


....... & you're just approaching the foothills :ugeek:
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#20 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Paul wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:38 pm "Man... the more I learn about how this market works, the steeper the mountain looms."


....... & you're just approaching the foothills :ugeek:
And I thought I was in the headlands! :doh:
Just my two cents...
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#21 Unread post by Paul »

Just keep your head down, ask questions, and memorize answers......

Due to a steeper than average learning curve, 95% give up!
(You know this is so easy right?)

Oh yeah, make sure that you look at hundreds of thousands of coins :ugeek:
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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#22 Unread post by Earle42 »

I agree with the CAC theory you proposed.

Besides that...my take.

You send CAC a PCGS Morgan MS63 labeled slab and get a green sticker. Ok - so CAC says PCGS did their job right*.

But then the coin is broken out, resubmitted, and let's say comes back M@64 or MS62.

Oops...so...what about the former CAC sticker that said PCGS was correct?

I do think it possible to see a coin has been undergraded, so there could be some validity to CAC saying something is undergraded, but...sending the coin in does not mean it WILL get the better grade! Again we hit a wall b/c there is no science where there should and could be.

Do I have an actual, in -hand example of the above scenario? No. But since CAC is just doing what PCGS does - giving an opinion with no verifiable standard, the scenario is posssible...and I would suspect it to be probable.

*Well...by definition there can be no "right" when there is no verifiable standard. What the CAC verifies is more like asking someone to draw a ruler (PCGS), and have another person (CAC) say the ryler looks good enough to them, but they have no actual ruler to check it by.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: 1904-O Morgan ICG MS66+ Crackout or Crossover?

#23 Unread post by RevElvisLee »

Earle42 wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 6:56 pm
I do think it possible to see a coin has been undergraded, so there could be some validity to CAC saying something is undergraded, but...sending the coin in does not mean it WILL get the better grade! Again we hit a wall b/c there is no science where there should and could be.
I just sold a really nice 1882-S Morgan (MS65) in the old ANACS Soapbar holder this morning that, if I'm comparing it to other MS65s I've seen, seems like it actually could have been undergraded. But I like the little white holders. I think a lot of people do. They're unobtrusive, and showcase the actual coin more than a PCGS holder does. I WAS thinking about crossing it, too! But somebody offered me a decent price and... well, as the old axiom says: "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". 👍
Just my two cents...
Steve
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