ICG - Are they accurate?
Moderator: Daniel
Forum rules
Here's a link to how to post a topic with images in our community https://coinauctionshelp.com/welcome-to ... community/
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You also agree to follow these guidelines. You must agree to these rules to be a member of this forum. NO SPAM! Spam is deleted within minutes, no spam will ever be left in our community.
1. Post a front and back image of your coin with a specific question about what you’re seeing or asking about and one coin per topic.
2. Please remove coin from the holder unless it’s US or an official mint case or unless it is graded by a grading service.
3. Images should be taken by a camera or cell phone camera, we ask that members don’t use images through a microscope screen.
4. Always start your own topic, please don’t ask about your coin or post your coin in someone else’s coin topic.
5. Do not send private messages about your coin unless an Admin ask you too and the same for sending emails through the board.
6. No spam. Do not post any links to your coin or other non-coin websites.
7. Always be respectful even if something makes you upset or you don’t agree with a member. You can always get a second opinion elsewhere. If you have an issue then politely ask an admin in an PM. PM’s are for issues, technical and personal, but not for coin questions (refer to number 5 on this list). Our community is not a soap box for complaining or drama, so please refrain from doing so here.[/size]
Here's a link to how to post a topic with images in our community https://coinauctionshelp.com/welcome-to ... community/
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You also agree to follow these guidelines. You must agree to these rules to be a member of this forum. NO SPAM! Spam is deleted within minutes, no spam will ever be left in our community.
1. Post a front and back image of your coin with a specific question about what you’re seeing or asking about and one coin per topic.
2. Please remove coin from the holder unless it’s US or an official mint case or unless it is graded by a grading service.
3. Images should be taken by a camera or cell phone camera, we ask that members don’t use images through a microscope screen.
4. Always start your own topic, please don’t ask about your coin or post your coin in someone else’s coin topic.
5. Do not send private messages about your coin unless an Admin ask you too and the same for sending emails through the board.
6. No spam. Do not post any links to your coin or other non-coin websites.
7. Always be respectful even if something makes you upset or you don’t agree with a member. You can always get a second opinion elsewhere. If you have an issue then politely ask an admin in an PM. PM’s are for issues, technical and personal, but not for coin questions (refer to number 5 on this list). Our community is not a soap box for complaining or drama, so please refrain from doing so here.[/size]
- Paul
- Master Die Variety Examiner
- Posts: 19053
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:19 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
- Has thanked: 905 times
- Been thanked: 3317 times
- Earle42
- Administrator
- Posts: 15942
- Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:18 am
- Location: OH
- Has thanked: 1373 times
- Been thanked: 4979 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
My wife has a cell phone which is with her all day. I don't have a land line and I hate cell phones. I call them leashes b/c of the similarity of how people react to them like a pet on a leash.
I'm thankful I do not need one. I know so many people do!
Anyway... email?
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
- Coin Mule
- Coin Wizz
- Posts: 628
- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:33 am
- Has thanked: 129 times
- Been thanked: 284 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
I like the IGC stuff, but they have almost no "cachet" "additional value". Certainly not like PCGS. But I have seen really good examples, so there is that.
The Coin Mule
NGC Member
CONECA Member
mintstate.com User
NGC Registry Set Rank #70
(Kennedy Half Dollars, Silver, 1964-1970, Circulation and Proof Issues)
CONECA Attributed 1878 P 8 TF VAM 23 TOP 100 SLOT 5
CONECA and ANACS MS62 Attributed 1882 CC VAM 3 A
CONECA and ANACS MS64 Attributed 1900 P VAM 4
ANACS 1884-O VAM-37A2 MPD
ANACS 1891-O VAM - 10
[glow=red]Resident Lone Haranguer [/glow]
NGC Member
CONECA Member
mintstate.com User
NGC Registry Set Rank #70
(Kennedy Half Dollars, Silver, 1964-1970, Circulation and Proof Issues)
CONECA Attributed 1878 P 8 TF VAM 23 TOP 100 SLOT 5
CONECA and ANACS MS62 Attributed 1882 CC VAM 3 A
CONECA and ANACS MS64 Attributed 1900 P VAM 4
ANACS 1884-O VAM-37A2 MPD
ANACS 1891-O VAM - 10
[glow=red]Resident Lone Haranguer [/glow]
- DSCoins
- Coin Guru
- Posts: 3459
- Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 7:47 pm
- Location: South central PA.
- Has thanked: 159 times
- Been thanked: 932 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
There is another side (worse for us). With NGC, once you become a bulk submitter, you can send your coins on what they call pre-sort (I think that is name of it) They will go over submission and will let you know how many of your coin's grades fall into what you want for a grade, they do not encapsulate the coins until submitter tell them to grade all the MS69's MS70's same thing for their Proofs. After they get all the coins back, they will list them on their sites. All the ones that did meet their grades they sell as BU.
USN Retired Jun1977-Jun 1997/100% disabled VET. (Not a wounded warrior)
Member CONACA
ANA
PCGS
NGC
Finds to date
2000-P .05C Strong Clashed Die O/R PCGS # 14129072 photo at maddieclashes
1983-P DDR FS-01-1983-501
5 2000 WAM FS- 901
Member CONACA
ANA
PCGS
NGC
Finds to date
2000-P .05C Strong Clashed Die O/R PCGS # 14129072 photo at maddieclashes
1983-P DDR FS-01-1983-501
5 2000 WAM FS- 901
- Mrweaseluv
- Coin Wizz
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:32 pm
- Has thanked: 132 times
- Been thanked: 200 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...
- RevElvisLee
- Coinasieur
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:00 am
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 23 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
I was just re-reading this and realized I didn't covey my meaning effectively. What I'm talking about is how they seem to protect the value of the top pops (and top pop adjacents) by maybe not grading the rarer of the two (1950 and 1962) as high in order to protect the price guide value. A deserving 1950 Franklin Proof hitting that 68+ grade brings down the resale value of the few that are already there, right? That's what I mean by market manipulation - protecting the rarities of top pops. Am I nuts? (Don't answer that!)Earle42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:14 am
I know I personally, when handling a, let's say 1932-S of 1932-D quarter in MS, am a bit more awed than if it was a common date. I wonder if my own natural tendency is not also what subconsciously enters into a grader's mind as well.
Sort of the shoulder angel whispering, "Wow! The rarest of the Washingtons and in MS - woohoo! She's a beaut!" Then the automatic awe meter inside the brain lowers the bar for grading opinion and allows a better grade opinion to come out. After all, who would not want to see an MS key coin in hand and high MS?
- Paul
- Master Die Variety Examiner
- Posts: 19053
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:19 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
- Has thanked: 905 times
- Been thanked: 3317 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
NoRevElvisLee wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:25 pmI was just re-reading this and realized I didn't covey my meaning effectively. What I'm talking about is how they seem to protect the value of the top pops (and top pop adjacents) by maybe not grading the rarer of the two (1950 and 1962) as high in order to protect the price guide value. A deserving 1950 Franklin Proof hitting that 68+ grade brings down the resale value of the few that are already there, right? That's what I mean by market manipulation - protecting the rarities of top pops. Am I nuts? (Don't answer that!)Earle42 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:14 am
I know I personally, when handling a, let's say 1932-S of 1932-D quarter in MS, am a bit more awed than if it was a common date. I wonder if my own natural tendency is not also what subconsciously enters into a grader's mind as well.
Sort of the shoulder angel whispering, "Wow! The rarest of the Washingtons and in MS - woohoo! She's a beaut!" Then the automatic awe meter inside the brain lowers the bar for grading opinion and allows a better grade opinion to come out. After all, who would not want to see an MS key coin in hand and high MS?
- RevElvisLee
- Coinasieur
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:00 am
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 23 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
I was just speaking to the owner of my local coin shop (about something ICG related but I'll start a new post about that one). He told me that ICG consistently wins the grading contest at the Long Beach Coin Show every year. So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!Mrweaseluv wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:42 am Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...
- RevElvisLee
- Coinasieur
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:00 am
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 23 times
- Earle42
- Administrator
- Posts: 15942
- Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:18 am
- Location: OH
- Has thanked: 1373 times
- Been thanked: 4979 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
B/c, as with so many other things, sadly, nowadays, its name brand that counts more over quality. The dealer is probably thinking if he pays more for it, then he will not be able to make any money b/c people won't pay him more for it.So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
- Mrweaseluv
- Coin Wizz
- Posts: 377
- Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:32 pm
- Has thanked: 132 times
- Been thanked: 200 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
I know one of the ICG graders so I "may" just be a little biased, but he's never steered me wrongRevElvisLee wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:36 pmI was just speaking to the owner of my local coin shop (about something ICG related but I'll start a new post about that one). He told me that ICG consistently wins the grading contest at the Long Beach Coin Show every year. So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!Mrweaseluv wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:42 am Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...
- RevElvisLee
- Coinasieur
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:00 am
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 23 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
And unfortunately, he'd be right. I just ended up selling my MS64 IGC '27 Peace Dollar for just over half of what I know it should have sold for. I sold it for more than I bought it for, but by the time you factor in the sales tax I had to pay (curse you, Wayfair) and eBay's 12.55% cut, plus the $5 ad fee which is now pretty much obligatory if you want to compete at all, what should have been a win for me turned into breaking even. The only ones who made any money were eBay and the Great State of California. I guess I know why the call it a "hobby"!Earle42 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:24 pmB/c, as with so many other things, sadly, nowadays, its name brand that counts more over quality. The dealer is probably thinking if he pays more for it, then he will not be able to make any money b/c people won't pay him more for it.So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!
- RevElvisLee
- Coinasieur
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:00 am
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 23 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
So... I guess there's one way to find out if my ICG MS64 Peace Dollar is a PCGS MS64 Peace Dollar. Too late to turn back now.
The Dremel worked really well! And I feel a little sick.
The Dremel worked really well! And I feel a little sick.
- Earle42
- Administrator
- Posts: 15942
- Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:18 am
- Location: OH
- Has thanked: 1373 times
- Been thanked: 4979 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
That is the nicest crack out I have seen. I have read where other just take a pair of pliers and crack the plastic.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
- RevElvisLee
- Coinasieur
- Posts: 102
- Joined: Wed Sep 22, 2021 4:00 am
- Has thanked: 112 times
- Been thanked: 23 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
One thing you can say about these ICG holders is they feel nice and solid! But a Dremel with a small circular blade along one edge was all it took, then a flathead screwdriver to carefully pry it apart. This was my first crackout. Kinda nerve-racking!
- Earle42
- Administrator
- Posts: 15942
- Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:18 am
- Location: OH
- Has thanked: 1373 times
- Been thanked: 4979 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
Yes, but just like an ex-con - its enjoying freedom again!Kinda nerve-racking!
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
-
- Coin Wizz
- Posts: 249
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2022 9:52 am
- Has thanked: 18 times
- Been thanked: 51 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
I held a VF35 ICG graded 1872 Indian cent in my hand yesterday, in a my new favorite coin store. The co-owner and I chatted a lot about it and I will not speak for him, but he for sure knows his stuff.
I am no indian cent expert but I play one on TV ( I have take the ANA grading coresponsece course, I have all Rick Snow's books, and I can click on PCGS photograde on-line ).
I bought two coins yesterday but not the 1872 Indian cent even though I am looking for a VF + XF coin.
The coin in the ICG holder looked over graded and at best VF-20. In addition all the highest high points looked "rubbed or buffed or cleaned" so I was betting if I sent it to NGC, PCGS or ANACS it would come back VF-20 cleaned or details
This is only one experience but since it happened yesterday I thought I would post it about what I saw in the ICG holder.
I am no indian cent expert but I play one on TV ( I have take the ANA grading coresponsece course, I have all Rick Snow's books, and I can click on PCGS photograde on-line ).
I bought two coins yesterday but not the 1872 Indian cent even though I am looking for a VF + XF coin.
The coin in the ICG holder looked over graded and at best VF-20. In addition all the highest high points looked "rubbed or buffed or cleaned" so I was betting if I sent it to NGC, PCGS or ANACS it would come back VF-20 cleaned or details
This is only one experience but since it happened yesterday I thought I would post it about what I saw in the ICG holder.
- Earle42
- Administrator
- Posts: 15942
- Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:18 am
- Location: OH
- Has thanked: 1373 times
- Been thanked: 4979 times
Re: ICG - Are they accurate?
Sort of like these PCGS slabs?
If I had a ruler where all of the markings on it it were just drawn on as what "looked to be the right spacing," I have a ruler with inherent problems and have to have a wonderful marketing department to get a business selling those rulers up and going. The loyal followers would eventually step in line.
Harsh, but true. The grading companies set up as being subjective, then turned to a legitimate scientific standard in the 90s, and then abandoned it for their original opinions-only system. This was despite them selling their computerized system by saying it gave the actual grade of a coin and was not subject to the errors known to be made with human grading.
Most likely the above was b/c when a coin always grades the same way - no more profits come in from the profitable re-slabbing game.
Accuracy can only be had by comparing to a verifiable standard.
No grading company uses scientifically verifiable standards to grade. When people start to see through the marketing (and mass mindset) hype, they can find slabs like this from all the grading companies without having to dig thorough huge piles of slabs (see the essay in my signature!).If I had a ruler where all of the markings on it it were just drawn on as what "looked to be the right spacing," I have a ruler with inherent problems and have to have a wonderful marketing department to get a business selling those rulers up and going. The loyal followers would eventually step in line.
Harsh, but true. The grading companies set up as being subjective, then turned to a legitimate scientific standard in the 90s, and then abandoned it for their original opinions-only system. This was despite them selling their computerized system by saying it gave the actual grade of a coin and was not subject to the errors known to be made with human grading.
Most likely the above was b/c when a coin always grades the same way - no more profits come in from the profitable re-slabbing game.
Accuracy can only be had by comparing to a verifiable standard.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
-
- Similar Topics
- Replies
- Views
- Last post
-
- 1 Replies
- 1000 Views
-
Last post by Daniel
-
- 5 Replies
- 266 Views
-
Last post by Earle42
-
- 0 Replies
- 1976 Views
-
Last post by tbird165
-
- 3 Replies
- 693 Views
-
Last post by Earle42
-
- 8 Replies
- 4578 Views
-
Last post by Daniel
-
- 5 Replies
- 2110 Views
-
Last post by RHM22
-
- 5 Replies
- 157 Views
-
Last post by kurtspringmann
-
- 4 Replies
- 2015 Views
-
Last post by RevElvisLee
-
- 22 Replies
- 3086 Views
-
Last post by RevElvisLee