ICG - Are they accurate?

[RevElvisLee]

Hi everybody!

Does anyone have experience with (or strong opinions on) ICG? I just bought a couple Peace Dollars ('26-S & 27-P) graded MS64 by ICG for considerably less than the stated PCGS price guide values. I was happy to get them, but it does make me wonder WHY they went for so much lower at auction. Any insights on their quality of service vs NGC/PCGS?

[Paul]

I personally have never had a problem with them.

Keep in mind, it's all about M-A-R-K-E-T-I-N-G !!

[RevElvisLee]

I personally have never had a problem with them.

Keep in mind, it's all about M-A-R-K-E-T-I-N-G !!

If it's all about marketing, and ICG is on par with PCGS, then I'm HAPPY, because that means I got a killer price!

[Daniel]

[Earle42]

The harsh reality about grading companies is that none of them use anything reliable and verifiable to grade. Therefore a coin graded by a company that is broken out and re-submitted to the same company again is never guaranteed the same grade!

Different companies also have their own school of training HOW to grade each type of coin, and so the companies each can assign a different grade to the same coin anyway!


So to ask if one company is as reliable as the other is more or less asking, "Is ICG, who is not accountable for what they grade a coin to be b/c they use no verifiable method for assigning a coin grade, as reliable as the other main grading companies who also are not accountable b/c they also do not use a verifiable method of grading a coin?"

This is the reality.

In the marketplace there will, eventually, be one company favored by the masses for whatever reason. PCGS is presently that choice. They have a better marketing department is my guess.

Proof? Read the essay in my signature (using linked PCGS website data) showing the reality of actual expertise THE experts of the grading companies have. The rookie level of knowledge of one of the most common Kennedy Half dollar errors is shameful b/c they have mislabeled many half dollars as a No FG, and cost people who just go with the marketing flow thousands of dollars. And all companies' slabs show the same (costly to consumers) error over and over.

As Paul said...

Keep in mind, it's all about M-A-R-K-E-T-I-N-G !!

At present, there is NO actual verifiable grading standard for the coin hobby (sad). Its all based on opinions and whether or not the graders who grade the coin had their morning coffee, got a speeding ticket that day, or found a 100.00 bill on the sidewalk on the way to work that morning.

[RevElvisLee]

Hi Daniel,

I'm a little confused by your response. Was the "Doubled-die" video the one you intended to post? I was just looking for opinions on IGC. I bought two ICG graded Peace Dollars, a 26-S and a 27-P, both MS64. I'm asking for opinions because Peace Dollars are REALLY hard to grade - at least for me. I don't want to take up a bunch of anyone's time over it, or post pictures asking opinions on the grades, etc., etc.... just generally speaking, since they are one of the four widely accepted grading services. Do you think they grade accurately?

[RevElvisLee]

The harsh reality about grading companies is that none of them use anything reliable and verifiable to grade. Therefore a coin graded by a company that is broken out and re-submitted to the same company again is never guaranteed the same grade!

Different companies also have their own school of training HOW to grade each type of coin, and so the companies each can assign a different grade to the same coin anyway!


So to ask if one company is as reliable as the other is more or less asking, "Is ICG, who is not accountable for what they grade a coin to be b/c they use no verifiable method for assigning a coin grade, as reliable as the other main grading companies who also are not accountable b/c they also do not use a verifiable method of grading a coin?"

This is the reality.

In the marketplace there will, eventually, be one company favored by the masses for whatever reason. PCGS is presently that choice. They have a better marketing department is my guess.

Proof? Read the essay in my signature (using linked PCGS website data) showing the reality of actual expertise THE experts of the grading companies have. The rookie level of knowledge of one of the most common Kennedy Half dollar errors is shameful b/c they have mislabeled many half dollars as a No FG, and cost people who just go with the marketing flow thousands of dollars. And all companies' slabs show the same (costly to consumers) error over and over.

As Paul said...

Keep in mind, it's all about M-A-R-K-E-T-I-N-G !!

At present, there is NO actual verifiable grading standard for the coin hobby (sad). Its all based on opinions and whether or not the graders who grade the coin had their morning coffee, got a speeding ticket that day, or found a 100.00 bill on the sidewalk on the way to work that morning.

So you're telling me there's a chance...

I share your frustration with the graders, and I actually did read your essay re: No FG Kennedys when I first joined the group. Something I have noticed in my very limited experience (I've only submitted about 50 coins so far) is that the conditional rarity of coins appears to affect the grade it will receive. I actually just watched one of Daniel's videos from a few years ago that kind of touched on this subject, and more broadly, the need for Artificial Intelligence or some other technology to aid in making grading more of a science. Now, I can't prove it, and I don't know if you have had the same experience, but let's say for the sake of argument that you submit 2 Franklin proofs that are virtually identical in condition - a 1956 t2 and a 1950. We'll leave strike designation out of it. One receives a PR68, the other a PR65. In this thought experiment there is literally no difference other than the date. Which coin gets the 68 grade? The one worth $125, or the one worth $25,000? Like I said, I can't prove it. How could I? But it sure smacks of market manipulation to me. I'd like to be wrong on that one.

Anyway, I got off topic a little bit. A 1927 Peace Dollar at MS64 is a pretty respectable coin with a pretty respectable valuation, eh? Kind on the scarce side if I'm not mistaken. The 26-S ain't half bad, either. I just wanted to check with all of you knowledgeable folks before I got too excited about it, because I have virtually no experience with ICG. As always, it's good to hear from you, and from Paul, Daniel, and everyone else who is always willing to share your knowledge. I do sincerely appreciate it!

Steve

[Earle42]

How could I? But it sure smacks of market manipulation to me. I'd like to be wrong on that one.

I know someplace on the website Daniel has a list of non-scam grading companies. I believe ICG is one of them.

Although I have to admit, IMO they all have some degree of what can be seen as a scam as you noticed.

I know I personally, when handling a, let's say 1932-S of 1932-D quarter in MS, am a bit more awed than if it was a common date. I wonder if my own natural tendency is not also what subconsciously enters into a grader's mind as well.

Sort of the shoulder angel whispering, "Wow! The rarest of the Washingtons and in MS - woohoo! She's a beaut!" Then the automatic awe meter inside the brain lowers the bar for grading opinion and allows a better grade opinion to come out. After all, who would not want to see an MS key coin in hand and high MS?

Like I said, I can't prove it. How could I?

Similar scenario but with ASE monster boxes. The owner of Ace Coins in Hagerstown, MD used to be my local shop owner before I moved. Years and years ago he went through the training and became employed by either PCGS or NGC (sorry I forgot!). Side note. He quit for his own businesses reputation sake of what he saw claimed vs what actually happened.

Anyway...

He told me he was convinced the companies (this is the early 00s into 2011) skimmed 23% (I admit my mind is shay if it was 20% or 23%) off the top of a monster box and marked them as MS70s. The rest were given lower grades. He said not to take his word for it but to start examining all the MS70 ASEs I could. he said it was not hard to find damaged MS70s (like rim hits)...and he was right.

So then he took to polling his fellow dealers at the larger shows to keep track of the percentage of MS70s they got back form their monster boxes. He said every one of them came up with the same exact percentage of MS70s out of the boxes. Thus indicating he had good reason to think it was all just a scam. They are so swamped by the huge number of coins, they solve the problem by just randomly assigning the MS70.

Does this continue to this day? I don't know. That was over 10 years ago now. But it still is pretty convincing there WAS fraudulent claims.

[Paul]

They are so swamped by the huge number of coins, they solve the problem by just randomly assigning the MS70.

Does this continue to this day? I don't know. That was over 10 years ago now. But it still is pretty convincing there WAS fraudulent claims.

Would this be what you call "Blanket Grading"...................

[Earle42]

Honestly until that other post about blanket grading I had no idea there was a special term for this. But the term sure makes sense.

Now we need a term for when the companies get paid to assign a variety and do it despite the coin obviously not being that variety.

Hmm..how about opening a new sticker service for slabs (lollipop shaped stickers)? We would call them F-Variety stickers for "Financed-Varieties!"

I better keep quiet...I might be giving the wrong people ideas.

[Paul]

We should talk.............

[Earle42]

We should talk.............

My wife has a cell phone which is with her all day. I don't have a land line and I hate cell phones. I call them leashes b/c of the similarity of how people react to them like a pet on a leash.

I'm thankful I do not need one. I know so many people do!

Anyway... email?

[Coin Mule]

I like the IGC stuff, but they have almost no "cachet" "additional value". Certainly not like PCGS. But I have seen really good examples, so there is that.

[DSCoins]

There is another side (worse for us). With NGC, once you become a bulk submitter, you can send your coins on what they call pre-sort (I think that is name of it) They will go over submission and will let you know how many of your coin's grades fall into what you want for a grade, they do not encapsulate the coins until submitter tell them to grade all the MS69's MS70's same thing for their Proofs. After they get all the coins back, they will list them on their sites. All the ones that did meet their grades they sell as BU.

[Mrweaseluv]

Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...

[RevElvisLee]

I know I personally, when handling a, let's say 1932-S of 1932-D quarter in MS, am a bit more awed than if it was a common date. I wonder if my own natural tendency is not also what subconsciously enters into a grader's mind as well.

Sort of the shoulder angel whispering, "Wow! The rarest of the Washingtons and in MS - woohoo! She's a beaut!" Then the automatic awe meter inside the brain lowers the bar for grading opinion and allows a better grade opinion to come out. After all, who would not want to see an MS key coin in hand and high MS?

I was just re-reading this and realized I didn't covey my meaning effectively. What I'm talking about is how they seem to protect the value of the top pops (and top pop adjacents) by maybe not grading the rarer of the two (1950 and 1962) as high in order to protect the price guide value. A deserving 1950 Franklin Proof hitting that 68+ grade brings down the resale value of the few that are already there, right? That's what I mean by market manipulation - protecting the rarities of top pops. Am I nuts? (Don't answer that!)

[Paul]

I know I personally, when handling a, let's say 1932-S of 1932-D quarter in MS, am a bit more awed than if it was a common date. I wonder if my own natural tendency is not also what subconsciously enters into a grader's mind as well.

Sort of the shoulder angel whispering, "Wow! The rarest of the Washingtons and in MS - woohoo! She's a beaut!" Then the automatic awe meter inside the brain lowers the bar for grading opinion and allows a better grade opinion to come out. After all, who would not want to see an MS key coin in hand and high MS?

I was just re-reading this and realized I didn't covey my meaning effectively. What I'm talking about is how they seem to protect the value of the top pops (and top pop adjacents) by maybe not grading the rarer of the two (1950 and 1962) as high in order to protect the price guide value. A deserving 1950 Franklin Proof hitting that 68+ grade brings down the resale value of the few that are already there, right? That's what I mean by market manipulation - protecting the rarities of top pops. Am I nuts? (Don't answer that!)

No

[RevElvisLee]

Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...

I was just speaking to the owner of my local coin shop (about something ICG related but I'll start a new post about that one). He told me that ICG consistently wins the grading contest at the Long Beach Coin Show every year. So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!

[RevElvisLee]

No

Whew! Well, that'll save me a TON in therapy bills.

[Earle42]

So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!

B/c, as with so many other things, sadly, nowadays, its name brand that counts more over quality. The dealer is probably thinking if he pays more for it, then he will not be able to make any money b/c people won't pay him more for it.

[Mrweaseluv]

Each of the 4 big TPGs has their own positive and negative issues. But you asked specificaly about ICG. Of the 4 I find ICG to be the most consistant in thier grading meaning the same coin submited 5 times would likely get the same grade 4 out of 5. The drawback is that they add the least premium on resale (but still better then a raw coin) When I finaly decide it's time to "slab" the $20 LC set it will be ICG they get sent too not one of the others... but then, I never intend to sell those coins so premium/resale value means nothing... if I planned to sell the set I would send them to PCGS or NGC as I could expect as much as 50% higher resale prices...

I was just speaking to the owner of my local coin shop (about something ICG related but I'll start a new post about that one). He told me that ICG consistently wins the grading contest at the Long Beach Coin Show every year. So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!

I know one of the ICG graders so I "may" just be a little biased, but he's never steered me wrong

[RevElvisLee]

So, he knows this full-well, yet he's only willing to pay raw coin prices for ICG. I don't get it. They're like the Rodney Dangerfield of grading services!

B/c, as with so many other things, sadly, nowadays, its name brand that counts more over quality. The dealer is probably thinking if he pays more for it, then he will not be able to make any money b/c people won't pay him more for it.

And unfortunately, he'd be right. I just ended up selling my MS64 IGC '27 Peace Dollar for just over half of what I know it should have sold for. I sold it for more than I bought it for, but by the time you factor in the sales tax I had to pay (curse you, Wayfair) and eBay's 12.55% cut, plus the $5 ad fee which is now pretty much obligatory if you want to compete at all, what should have been a win for me turned into breaking even. The only ones who made any money were eBay and the Great State of California. I guess I know why the call it a "hobby"!

[RevElvisLee]

So... I guess there's one way to find out if my ICG MS64 Peace Dollar is a PCGS MS64 Peace Dollar. Too late to turn back now.

The Dremel worked really well! And I feel a little sick.

[Earle42]

That is the nicest crack out I have seen. I have read where other just take a pair of pliers and crack the plastic.

[RevElvisLee]

That is the nicest crack out I have seen. I have read where other just take a pair of pliers and crack the plastic.

One thing you can say about these ICG holders is they feel nice and solid! But a Dremel with a small circular blade along one edge was all it took, then a flathead screwdriver to carefully pry it apart. This was my first crackout. Kinda nerve-racking!

[Earle42]

Kinda nerve-racking!

Yes, but just like an ex-con - its enjoying freedom again!

[markustg]

I held a VF35 ICG graded 1872 Indian cent in my hand yesterday, in a my new favorite coin store. The co-owner and I chatted a lot about it and I will not speak for him, but he for sure knows his stuff.
I am no indian cent expert but I play one on TV ( I have take the ANA grading coresponsece course, I have all Rick Snow's books, and I can click on PCGS photograde on-line ).
I bought two coins yesterday but not the 1872 Indian cent even though I am looking for a VF + XF coin.
The coin in the ICG holder looked over graded and at best VF-20. In addition all the highest high points looked "rubbed or buffed or cleaned" so I was betting if I sent it to NGC, PCGS or ANACS it would come back VF-20 cleaned or details
This is only one experience but since it happened yesterday I thought I would post it about what I saw in the ICG holder.

[Earle42]

Sort of like these PCGS slabs?

No grading company uses scientifically verifiable standards to grade. When people start to see through the marketing (and mass mindset) hype, they can find slabs like this from all the grading companies without having to dig thorough huge piles of slabs (see the essay in my signature!).

If I had a ruler where all of the markings on it it were just drawn on as what "looked to be the right spacing," I have a ruler with inherent problems and have to have a wonderful marketing department to get a business selling those rulers up and going. The loyal followers would eventually step in line.

Harsh, but true. The grading companies set up as being subjective, then turned to a legitimate scientific standard in the 90s, and then abandoned it for their original opinions-only system. This was despite them selling their computerized system by saying it gave the actual grade of a coin and was not subject to the errors known to be made with human grading.

Most likely the above was b/c when a coin always grades the same way - no more profits come in from the profitable re-slabbing game.

Accuracy can only be had by comparing to a verifiable standard.