Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
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___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You also agree to follow these guidelines. You must agree to these rules to be a member of this forum. NO SPAM! Spam is deleted within minutes, no spam will ever be left in our community.
1. Post a front and back image of your coin with a specific question about what you’re seeing or asking about and one coin per topic.
2. Please remove coin from the holder unless it’s US or an official mint case or unless it is graded by a grading service.
3. Images should be taken by a camera or cell phone camera, we ask that members don’t use images through a microscope screen.
4. Always start your own topic, please don’t ask about your coin or post your coin in someone else’s coin topic.
5. Do not send private messages about your coin unless an Admin ask you too and the same for sending emails through the board.
6. No spam. Do not post any links to your coin or other non-coin websites.
7. Always be respectful even if something makes you upset or you don’t agree with a member. You can always get a second opinion elsewhere. If you have an issue then politely ask an admin in an PM. PM’s are for issues, technical and personal, but not for coin questions (refer to number 5 on this list). Our community is not a soap box for complaining or drama, so please refrain from doing so here.[/size]
- RevElvisLee
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Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
I'm by no means an expert, especially when it comes to grading co's. In my first attempt with PCGS, out of 39 coins I only received 4 body bags, which I think is pretty good for the 1st try. But here's how it shakes out: 2 cleaned, 1 damaged, and one counterfeit! I have examined this coin from every angle, and I cannot see anything that would indicate counterfeit. Even the mintmark looks right compared to PCGS's own coinfacts page. But like I said, not an expert. But there's a TON of experts here! Does anyone see anything that would make them think this isn't genuine? And if so, could you please point it out to me? I was thinking of sending to ANACS for a 2nd opinion, but I thought I'd check the forum first to see if I'm missing the obvious. As always, thanks for taking the time! -Steve
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
Hello. Looks fine to me anyways. Nice Coin!
Member of CONECA
" All replies are my opinion based on experience"
Casual Collector 40+ years , 10 years Error coins ( still learning).
" All replies are my opinion based on experience"
Casual Collector 40+ years , 10 years Error coins ( still learning).
- RevElvisLee
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
Thanks. I thought so too. I was expecting to get an AU grade out of it at worst. I certainly wasn't expecting this! It'd be nice if the graders would take a second to jot down a quick note saying WHY they think it's counterfeit. But nope, nothing. And I can't in good conscience sell this on eBay (which is where I bought it!) unless I can verify it one way or another. I really think I will send it to ANACS and see if it comes back the same way. If anyone else reads this and wants to weigh in, I'd sure appreciate it.
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
Having deliberately handled and studied the modern fakes, I can tell you that the picture yo posted just initially look off in the design. I took yours and a legit PCGS graded one and put them side by side. I tried to align the profiles to the approximate same orientation, but they do not line up b/c they are different. An imaginary line form the tip of the nose to the chin is appromiately the same in both, which throws off the direction the feathers are pointing. I admit I did not get it perfectly aligned, but the effect is the same.
Click to enlarge. Note red arrows show design differences in the details of the face. Note bright pink arrows show the differences in letter spacing when each arrow is compared with its matching arrow on the other coin. Note I took an drew a blue line form the base of the top feather to its tip on the left coin, and and did the same with a green arrow on the right coin. I then copied those lines and put them side by side in the middle to show you the difference in length.
Remembering we are dealing only with pictures - the results are not hard to see when looking carefully.
I suspect your coin has a more porous surface than is showing in the pictures as well. I suspect the weight of the fake will be close to legit, but the weight might also be off.
Click to enlarge. Note red arrows show design differences in the details of the face. Note bright pink arrows show the differences in letter spacing when each arrow is compared with its matching arrow on the other coin. Note I took an drew a blue line form the base of the top feather to its tip on the left coin, and and did the same with a green arrow on the right coin. I then copied those lines and put them side by side in the middle to show you the difference in length.
Remembering we are dealing only with pictures - the results are not hard to see when looking carefully.
I suspect your coin has a more porous surface than is showing in the pictures as well. I suspect the weight of the fake will be close to legit, but the weight might also be off.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
I agree, counterfeit.Earle42 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:28 pm Having deliberately handled and studied the modern fakes, I can tell you that the picture yo posted just initially look off in the design. I took yours and a legit PCGS graded one and put them side by side. I tried to align the profiles to the approximate same orientation, but they do not line up b/c they are different. An imaginary line form the tip of the nose to the chin is appromiately the same in both, which throws off the direction the feathers are pointing. I admit I did not get it perfectly aligned, but the effect is the same.
Click to enlarge. Note red arrows show design differences in the details of the face. Note bright pink arrows show the differences in letter spacing when each arrow is compared with its matching arrow on the other coin. Note I took an drew a blue line form the base of the top feather to its tip on the left coin, and and did the same with a green arrow on the right coin. I then copied those lines and put them side by side in the middle to show you the difference in length.
Remembering we are dealing only with pictures - the results are not hard to see when looking carefully.
I suspect your coin has a more porous surface than is showing in the pictures as well. I suspect the weight of the fake will be close to legit, but the weight might also be off.
Fake1908-S_Comp.jpg
U.S. cent lover!
- RevElvisLee
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
Man! You have got some sharp eyes. It's funny how a person can't see it until it's pointed out, and all of a sudden you can't unsee it. I would've never picked that out, but now I also see that the genuine has the hint of a smile, where mine has a slight frown! I guess that about sums up the situation!Earle42 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:28 pm Having deliberately handled and studied the modern fakes, I can tell you that the picture yo posted just initially look off in the design. I took yours and a legit PCGS graded one and put them side by side. I tried to align the profiles to the approximate same orientation, but they do not line up b/c they are different. An imaginary line form the tip of the nose to the chin is appromiately the same in both, which throws off the direction the feathers are pointing. I admit I did not get it perfectly aligned, but the effect is the same.
Click to enlarge. Note red arrows show design differences in the details of the face. Note bright pink arrows show the differences in letter spacing when each arrow is compared with its matching arrow on the other coin. Note I took an drew a blue line form the base of the top feather to its tip on the left coin, and and did the same with a green arrow on the right coin. I then copied those lines and put them side by side in the middle to show you the difference in length.
Remembering we are dealing only with pictures - the results are not hard to see when looking carefully.
I suspect your coin has a more porous surface than is showing in the pictures as well. I suspect the weight of the fake will be close to legit, but the weight might also be off.
Fake1908-S_Comp.jpg
THANK YOU for taking the time and effort to do such a detailed analysis and provide a definitive answer. It's pretty much worth the money I lost on what I thought was a semi-key IHC! Oh well, price of an education... Fortunately, my 1863 came back AU-58.
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
The coin you posted does not have the exact details of an authentic example and doesn't have the same strike or finish as an authentic US Mint product of this time period.
Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
It also looks like the bust is REEAAALLLYYYY pointed, compared to the authentic one.
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
The best part to me in all of this is that you said you cannot un-see it! Now you have the wherewithal to start detecting these for yourself as well. Another technique is to make a graphic overlay of one onto the other - the differences stick out easily.RevElvisLee wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:16 pmMan! You have got some sharp eyes. It's funny how a person can't see it until it's pointed out, and all of a sudden you can't unsee it. I would've never picked that out, but now I also see that the genuine has the hint of a smile, where mine has a slight frown! I guess that about sums up the situation!Earle42 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:28 pm Having deliberately handled and studied the modern fakes, I can tell you that the picture yo posted just initially look off in the design. I took yours and a legit PCGS graded one and put them side by side. I tried to align the profiles to the approximate same orientation, but they do not line up b/c they are different. An imaginary line form the tip of the nose to the chin is appromiately the same in both, which throws off the direction the feathers are pointing. I admit I did not get it perfectly aligned, but the effect is the same.
Click to enlarge. Note red arrows show design differences in the details of the face. Note bright pink arrows show the differences in letter spacing when each arrow is compared with its matching arrow on the other coin. Note I took an drew a blue line form the base of the top feather to its tip on the left coin, and and did the same with a green arrow on the right coin. I then copied those lines and put them side by side in the middle to show you the difference in length.
Remembering we are dealing only with pictures - the results are not hard to see when looking carefully.
I suspect your coin has a more porous surface than is showing in the pictures as well. I suspect the weight of the fake will be close to legit, but the weight might also be off.
Fake1908-S_Comp.jpg
THANK YOU for taking the time and effort to do such a detailed analysis and provide a definitive answer. It's pretty much worth the money I lost on what I thought was a semi-key IHC! Oh well, price of an education... Fortunately, my 1863 came back AU-58.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
- RevElvisLee
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
This is a major problem with coin grading companies taking 3+ months to return your submissions to you. I now have no recourse in regard to the person who sold me this fake on eBay, because it's well beyond 30 days ago. They use the reverse of an IHC with an S mint mark as bait to sell you a roll of common wheat cents for $100 or more. I had assumed this was a marketing ploy, and that they'd at least seed them with a genuine one! I have to admit the thought never even occurred to me on a semi-key '08-S, whereas I would've probably scrutinized an '09-S much more closely. I suppose this is all part of the "growing pains" (or school of hard knocks) involved in being both a new collector and reseller. Que sera sera. Thanks again for your help!Earle42 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 1:03 amThe best part to me in all of this is that you said you cannot un-see it! Now you have the wherewithal to start detecting these for yourself as well. Another technique is to make a graphic overlay of one onto the other - the differences stick out easily.RevElvisLee wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:16 pmMan! You have got some sharp eyes. It's funny how a person can't see it until it's pointed out, and all of a sudden you can't unsee it. I would've never picked that out, but now I also see that the genuine has the hint of a smile, where mine has a slight frown! I guess that about sums up the situation!Earle42 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:28 pm Having deliberately handled and studied the modern fakes, I can tell you that the picture yo posted just initially look off in the design. I took yours and a legit PCGS graded one and put them side by side. I tried to align the profiles to the approximate same orientation, but they do not line up b/c they are different. An imaginary line form the tip of the nose to the chin is appromiately the same in both, which throws off the direction the feathers are pointing. I admit I did not get it perfectly aligned, but the effect is the same.
Click to enlarge. Note red arrows show design differences in the details of the face. Note bright pink arrows show the differences in letter spacing when each arrow is compared with its matching arrow on the other coin. Note I took an drew a blue line form the base of the top feather to its tip on the left coin, and and did the same with a green arrow on the right coin. I then copied those lines and put them side by side in the middle to show you the difference in length.
Remembering we are dealing only with pictures - the results are not hard to see when looking carefully.
I suspect your coin has a more porous surface than is showing in the pictures as well. I suspect the weight of the fake will be close to legit, but the weight might also be off.
Fake1908-S_Comp.jpg
THANK YOU for taking the time and effort to do such a detailed analysis and provide a definitive answer. It's pretty much worth the money I lost on what I thought was a semi-key IHC! Oh well, price of an education... Fortunately, my 1863 came back AU-58.
Steve
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Re: Do Body Bags Count? 1908-S IHC Counterfeit - But Is It?
Steve, just as another help. I admit people know me as one who is fed up with the reputation grading companies have with the masses b/c a lot of homework I have done shows me they are far from what the average person gives them credit for. If I have posted the following for you before, I am sorry for the repeat. But I try to help out my fellow collectors with knowing the reality of these businesses so collectors can have a proper perspective on how, when, and why to use the companies without losing money. The essay linked in the below post is proof of concept using a LOT of PCGS' own data form their website.
Here is a reality check about grading companies vs. what people coming into the hobby just assume about them b/c they see so many slabbed coins being sold:
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Here is some beginners fishing tackle. Its worth your time to read.
Following is info concerning the actual nature of grading companies that can help people make better educated decisions.
Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.
Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.
Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:
a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality its normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.
b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.
But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders
Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies
Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors correctly.
Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.
Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. ANACs does not have all these fees though.
You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.
And…if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!"
Here is a reality check about grading companies vs. what people coming into the hobby just assume about them b/c they see so many slabbed coins being sold:
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Here is some beginners fishing tackle. Its worth your time to read.
Following is info concerning the actual nature of grading companies that can help people make better educated decisions.
Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.
Popular mistaken mindset:
1. The grading companies are not a way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.
Professional predicting not possible:
2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets slabbed coins back from the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays:
a. Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where allegedly three, but in reality its normally two, graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.
b. If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (extreme and a bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (extreme and a great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. This subjectivity makes for greater company profits since people resubmit the same coin trying to get a higher (better price when selling) grade. In the 90s the companies, at great expense, created better (their own words) scientific methods not relying upon human opinion. No doubt the large profit from the re-slabbing game fell. The companies abandoned the science and went back to their less accurate systems.
But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders
Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies
Error on errors:
3. People also seem to think grading companies will examine a coin to see if they can find an error and then slab it as such. But again, they ONLY GRADE coins. The companies will NOT try to find and ID an error for you. You must FIRST ID the error yourself, CHECK to see if the company you want to use recognizes that specific error, PAY them to verify the error on the label, and then you may or may not actually get what you pay for! The companies have a bad reputation for attributing errors correctly.
Link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature as an eye opening example. Sadly, the verifiable data presented from the PCGS website shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.
Cost concerns:
4. B/c people do not understand the businesses, so very many people end up with spending far more money to slab a coin than the coin is worth. The companies profit greatly with membership fees, submission fees, insurance fees, shipping fees and extra (chosen) fees. ANACs does not have all these fees though.
You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.
And…if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!"
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8
How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?
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