First Try

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B.Alvn
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First Try

#1 Unread post by B.Alvn »

Hello my fellow numismatists!

I wanted to see if y'all thought these images were ok for grading purposes, or maybe too dark? These coins are quite shiny and so I'm not really sure. Any other issues?

This is just the first coin that kind of popped out. I also wouldn't mind knowing what the grade is, as a baseline...the fields seem nearly perfect, and I do think it is a good strike..but I have some nicer ones here for sure.

EDIT: SEE BELOW FOR MUCH BETTER IMAGES.

Thanks for any help. My name is Bruce by the way. :-)
Last edited by B.Alvn on Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: First Try

#2 Unread post by B.Alvn »

oh wait...i screwed up...i will repost the original higher-quality pictures

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Re: First Try

#3 Unread post by B.Alvn »

Umm...I think these should be better. I'm having some problems with the files getting automatically re-encoded. The original "PNG" (extension) files look better but this system doesn't take those either, I just found out.
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Re: First Try

#4 Unread post by PetesPockets55 »

Nice coins "Bruce By The Way" (Couldn't resist)

Images are pretty good but it is really difficult to judge a grade in hand let alone from an image.
I would think yours might be in the MS64 range. Dark spots, blemishes and dings will affect it.

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Re: First Try

#5 Unread post by B.Alvn »

Thanks. lol You must play hold'em with a nick like yours, hmm?

I've heard different things about the spots. Would you say 1955 falls into the "modern" classification? I read that can make a difference.

What's your opinion on the discolored spots on Abe's cheekbones and forehead? Is that from bag wear?

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Re: First Try

#6 Unread post by mhonzell »

With few exceptions, after 1935 is modern.
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Re: First Try

#7 Unread post by PetesPockets55 »

Possibly bag wear, but more likely album rub.

EDIT: That black spot front and center on the reverse was more noticeable to me.
And not a poker player. Can't keep a straight face and would probably wag my tail if I were a poker playing dog! lol:

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Re: First Try

#8 Unread post by Daniel »

I see some staining but over-all a nice coin that could be MS64-MS65. Even in this condition these are fairly common. Thanks for posting!

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Re: First Try

#9 Unread post by B.Alvn »

PetesPockets55 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:16 am Possibly bag wear, but more likely album rub.

EDIT: That black spot front and center on the reverse was more noticeable to me.
And not a poker player. Can't keep a straight face and would probably wag my tail if I were a poker playing dog! lol:
I'd be surprised if this was album rub because this came from what was supposed to be an original bank roll from the year it was minted. I know for a fact that it hasn't been in any kind of album since at least the early 70s.. and judging by some of the other stuff that also came from my Grampa, this is just another run-of-the-mill coin he didn't care about much... That's why i'm pretty excited, because is this coin makes 64/65 then I might just have some contenders.. there are really a lot of brilliant, beautiful reds in here.

As I said, this was a test run...I will post a bunch more for us to discuss. Thanks for the feedback... (hey, if you can't keep a poker face, there's always online. ;)

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Re: First Try

#10 Unread post by B.Alvn »

Daniel wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:04 am I see some staining but over-all a nice coin that could be MS64-MS65. Even in this condition these are fairly common. Thanks for posting!
Hey, I'll take that grade! For a fairly common coin, PCGS's website still says $8-12 range...that's kind of nice. Thanks for looking at it... I'll post some more from these rolls soon... So the image quality and brightness were acceptable then?

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Re: First Try

#11 Unread post by Daniel »

PCGS values are for graded coins so more like a $1 raw. You can often get them for around that much as coin shows.

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Re: First Try

#12 Unread post by B.Alvn »

so it's either $1 or get it graded and try to hit 67 for a jackpot coin worth several grand, huh? It's a little surreal..

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Re: First Try

#13 Unread post by Daniel »

Believe me I have tried to get that grade but it is a gift that is not often given, it is a trade secret that keeps the rare coin market rare.

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Re: First Try

#14 Unread post by PetesPockets55 »

B.Alvn wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:41 pm
Daniel wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:04 am I see some staining but over-all a nice coin that could be MS64-MS65. Even in this condition these are fairly common. Thanks for posting!
Hey, I'll take that grade! For a fairly common coin, PCGS's website still says $8-12 range...that's kind of nice. Thanks for looking at it... I'll post some more from these rolls soon... So the image quality and brightness were acceptable then?
That maybe the price range, but remember that is when they are in the PCGS holder, not raw.
And unfortunately it gets pricey to put in a "slab". (Daniel would have a better idea on that cost than I will.)

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Re: First Try

#15 Unread post by B.Alvn »

Daniel wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:59 pm Believe me I have tried to get that grade but it is a gift that is not often given, it is a trade secret that keeps the rare coin market rare.
Well, it is fun. I figure at least after going through a few hundred coins i can at least begin to get an idea of what these grades mean and maybe find 2 or 3 to send in...

Level with me, though...it's not really an exact, objective, science, is it?

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Re: First Try

#16 Unread post by mhonzell »

Don't confuse grade with eye appeal.
While eye appeal can affect grade, grade is a measure of the surface condition.

Example:
One of the three Morgans below is a MS-65. The other two are MS-64. Care to guess?
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Re: First Try

#17 Unread post by Daniel »

No it really isn't a science although some elements are. What the problem is that human error and greed are real issues in this business and these companies are in the to make money. They're in a race to have the most expensive coins in their holders so it's a balancing act.

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Re: First Try

#18 Unread post by B.Alvn »

mhonzell wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:31 am Don't confuse grade with eye appeal.
While eye appeal can affect grade, grade is a measure of the surface condition.

Example:
One of the three Morgans below is a MS-65. The other two are MS-64. Care to guess?
the one in the middle clearly has better surface condition, to me. the one on the left has some kind of damage in the field behind Lady's head (and the ugly spot), and the one on the right has wear of some kind above the ear and elsewhere...

frankly i'm surprised the left coin is even considered Mint State at all.....isn't that circulation wear i'm looking at? Even worse, it looks like a cleaned coin, doesn't it?

how'd i do?

let me ask you: what is included in 'surface condition' ...does that include spots and discoloration or only physical damage?

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Re: First Try

#19 Unread post by B.Alvn »

Daniel wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:52 am No it really isn't a science although some elements are. What the problem is that human error and greed are real issues in this business and these companies are in the to make money. They're in a race to have the most expensive coins in their holders so it's a balancing act.
that's too bad... you'd think at $30-40 a pop that would be enough money to run a very profitable business on...it takes a grader, what?, 2 minutes per coin? and how much overhead could there be? a few magnifying glasses, some plastic holders manufactured by the billions in China somewhere.... they are already greedy as blazes without having to be dishonest too.

Do you think we will see a day when computer software takes over grading? It really wouldn't be that hard to write a program that takes a more objective look...

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Re: First Try

#20 Unread post by mhonzell »

The two left Morgans are graded at 64. The right is graded at 65.

Photos do not always tell the story. Graders hold these in hand, albeit briefly, and examine the surfaces. I have to wonder if the one on the right would have received a 66 if it wasn't so toned. The left one's fields are reflective and the devices appear to contrast, which likely brought the grade up despite the marks. I still think it is overgraded. The one in the middle is actually labeled as a Proof 64 Cameo, which is a different type of strike.

You can claim the TPGs are overly subjective until you see examples like the one on the right. So, I'd have to say they usually get it right.
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Re: First Try

#21 Unread post by Daniel »

I am not saying they're dishonest, but they do not grade each coin they look at equally and are inconsistent. You can't prove anything for or against on market grading but every dealer claims it happens.

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Re: First Try

#22 Unread post by mhonzell »

I agree with Daniel. But, mostly trying to confirm, it is not a science.
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Re: First Try

#23 Unread post by Paul »

:eureka:

if you read the fine print in each of the TPG's sections on grading, they even tell you that "grading is subjective".
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Re: First Try

#24 Unread post by B.Alvn »

mhonzell wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:28 am The two left Morgans are graded at 64. The right is graded at 65.
so those marks in the fields on the right coin are not signs of cleaning with a brush? and it is just a super-weak strike, with no wear whatsoever? i kind of thought to make 65 or higher the strike had to be very good and all details present... so much to learn! :confused:

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Re: First Try

#25 Unread post by B.Alvn »

Daniel wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:42 am I am not saying they're dishonest, but they do not grade each coin they look at equally and are inconsistent. You can't prove anything for or against on market grading but every dealer claims it happens.
i guess your use of the word "greed" briefly had me triggered... greed does lead to bad, bad things, that's for sure.

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