A-Mark flex slab from 1985

[Jimbo]

1906S $20 gold liberty hand signed by Jeffery Bergelt In a flexible coin slab from 1985. it is also, MS60 graded
Like to know if the slab has tremendous value or
Is a NGC,pcgs changeover slab better?
Coin is a family inherited/passed down Coin.
What kind of value can I see over the gold price?
What kind of insurance value should I put on this?

Jeffery Bergelt Was the signature

[Westin]

There's not much premium on this. The holder might be collectable to someone, but that's a hard sell. I would probably send this to anacs if you want a new holder. They're the cheapest by far. For insurance I'd put $2,800 on it.

[Jimbo]

I rarely see an A-mark flex holder slab.
Does anybody have some more pictures of some others?
Like are they actually rare?

[JTCC]

Something might be rare, but it’s the demand for the particular item that dictates its value.
I doubt there’s much, if any demand for these “holders”.

[Westin]

Something might be rare, but it’s the demand for the particular item that dictates its value.
I doubt there’s much, if any demand for these “holders”.

Yeah that's kinda the problem, eh? "There's only 3 in the world and two people want one."

[Jimbo]

Appreciate all the above advice so far.
I believe a good story, history or condition could sell any coin.
How about? “Jeffery Bergelt” any information on him?

[Westin]

Idk, he seems to be a moderately well known numismatist. Here's another slab of his but the coin got replaced with a fake:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussio ... nt-gaudens
Other than this, I can't find anything about the slab. You can Google the guy's name and he comes up a decent bit.

[Jimbo]

Thank you for sharing that story of the other gentleman a Mark slab. Big bummer's that it was fake.

[Earle42]

Remember the grading companies are primarily about a business trying to keep orifts coming in so the company stays in business. There are all sorts of marketing gimmicks they use to try to come up with ways of making more money. Fancy colored labels, meaningless) things like "First Day oF Issue" labels etc. are all marketed as being something special. IN the end these types of things have no extra premium except to the very few who want them for the fun of it, or those who are mistaken they are worthy of investment b/c there will be some sort of huge demand for them some day.

[Jimbo]

The whole precious Metal market is extraordinarily competitive. Speculating in slabbed or”rare" coins ,when the entire business model of many prominent dealers is to capitalize on customers' inexperience!!!
This is a family driven hobby that I want to pass down to my children and their children selling is not an option!!!!
would love to have positive spins and good stories to tell.
instead of negativity.
I am a Coin numismatist and collector (many years) looking for information.
That’s why I’m here….. We appreciate all the advice given.
but it’s information that I truly seek… thank you everyone

[Westin]

Well if you don't plan on selling it, then that holder is fine. It's not going to get damaged in there. And it's a neat piece of history.

[Earle42]

instead of negativity.

Not sure where you are interpreting negativity. There were no insults and no immature statements made. If you are speaking of my reply, what was posted is just straight fact.

If the term "meaningless" concerning "First Day of Issue" labels, was seen as negative, then please do some research into these labels b/c coins labeled as such are not what the label seems to imply. They are, in fact, a meaningless marketing gimmick.

[Daniel]

You’re incorrect. No prominent dealer or company is in the business of capitalizing on anyone’s ignorance, that is not true. Prominent dealers have buy prices and they’re the same for everyone.
I don’t know where you heard this but it’s wrong.
Also, when someone tells you the truth, it might be deflating but the truth and the facts are what they are.
We do not give false hopes here nor sugar coat anything.
You called me on the phone and posted here asking about value. So that is a concern of yours. So unless you explain why you’re concerned about that, we can only assume why you ask about extra value.

[Jimbo]

In 10 years…more than likely,
this will be the only a-mark flex sealed Coin available.
Hand signed and certified by Jeffery Bergelt
1985,Before American Gold Coins were available
Genuine and in great ms60 condition!
I’m sorry gentlemen, but we disagree.
great history, uniqueness ,rarity and stories. in my opinion are better than the condition of any coin.
We were interested in insurance value and the Jeffery Bergelt story mostly… my children are information seekers.
“I value the collecting time with them”
YouTube told this was the place to get professional help.
we are by no means “New numismatists..”
Further, thank you very much. for allowing us to join and for all your opinion with honesty.

[Jimbo]

Not all coin dealers are honest That was the whole intention of our statement. i’m sorry if people took that wrong or got offended.

[Marvic]

Not all coin dealers are honest That was the whole intention of our statement. i’m sorry if people took that wrong or got offended.

There is NOT one profession in which all are honest; even in religion, there are crooks and misleading individuals...

[Jimbo]

For the record.
We love our local coin shops(LCS).
Some of our above staments were from—Monetary metals

[kurtspringmann]

The whole precious Metal market is extraordinarily competitive. Speculating in slabbed or”rare" coins ,when the entire business model of many prominent dealers is to capitalize on customers' inexperience!!!
This is a family driven hobby that I want to pass down to my children and their children selling is not an option!!!!
would love to have positive spins and good stories to tell.
instead of negativity.
I am a Coin numismatist and collector (many years) looking for information.
That’s why I’m here….. We appreciate all the advice given.
but it’s information that I truly seek… thank you everyone

I would recommend against getting any common gold coin in stated MS60 graded as it does not enhance value.

Take a look at the auction results at Great Collections or even the PCGS retail (https://www.pcgs.com/prices/detail/libe ... s-25-60/ms) and you will see that common date/mint gold coins trade based upon their gold content.

I recently sold some PCGS MS65 and they barely go for a hundred or two more than an MS60. Just keep it in the current holder and keep it in the family as you planned. Good luck.

[Jimbo]

To get back on track
A mark was sold in 2005
Their numerical serial numbers we were told are no longer available. sure would be nice just to see how rare this actually is.
Like how many “ A-Mark slabs” are known to exist….
Here is an interesting fact this was my father‘s. He bought it in 1986 for $300.!!!

[Jimbo]

Thank you for the data sheet kurtspringmann.
That was very helpful.
So (by the tone of everyone here) I can only assume that this coin would not be a 63 if we have it regraded with anac or even ngc
Pcgs would not be kind for sure! Lol we need a 1874 $20 gold liberty to finish our set….

[Westin]

They're a lot looser on grading nowadays. You might get a bump, you might not. It could come back AU-58. It's a gamble, and we can't accurately predict it.

You can check here to see how your coin stacks up against their examples:
https://www.pcgs.com/photograde#/20Lib/Grades

[Westin]

Oh this is hilarious, check this out. According to PCGS Price Guide, MS-60 is the LEAST valuable grade. Apparently a VF-20 is worth $5 more:
https://www.pcgs.com/prices/detail/libe ... ost-active

I think this is because circulated grades auto update with spot price and UNC examples need manual update. Which really throws things off because now I have no clue what an MS-60 or 62 is worth over spot. That's how the price tables should work on these. "Spot + $100" not just listing sale prices. It's too inconsistent with the way gold fluctuates.

[Jimbo]

1874-S $20 gold liberty ….

[Daniel]

In 10 years…more than likely,
this will be the only a-mark flex sealed Coin available.
Hand signed and certified by Jeffery Bergelt
1985,Before American Gold Coins were available
Genuine and in great ms60 condition!
I’m sorry gentlemen, but we disagree.
great history, uniqueness ,rarity and stories. in my opinion are better than the condition of any coin.
We were interested in insurance value and the Jeffery Bergelt story mostly… my children are information seekers.
“I value the collecting time with them”
YouTube told this was the place to get professional help.
we are by no means “New numismatists..”
Further, thank you very much. for allowing us to join and for all your opinion with honesty.

You can't make this assumption, there's all kinds of collectors of these different slabs, there's more than you think and no one is cracking these out anymore because of it.
Also, Youtube, my videos, said if you have a question we have a link in the description to ask for help. We have helped you.
Also, I wasn't offended by your remark, I was correcting it with factual information.
I am most certainly not knew to the hobby so I know a few things myself and blanket statements are something one should not repeat.
We all know every profession has crooks but not most or all dealers or professions are, just the opposite.
Although you haven't see your slab before, you're not the only person who likes slabs like this. I did a little research myself and this dealer sold a lot of coins.
I think it's worth a small premium over the gold, but as I said on the phone, until it is sold, we can't know what that is unless you find someone who's buying them know, and know what they're willing to pay.

[Westin]

You can watch this one to see if it will sell. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/305650589793
The guy has a $350 premium on it, which I think is a bit nuts for a holder like this. I mean your coin is number 10,097... with how many more after that? Someone posted on r/Coins the same thing as yours but it's a 1907. The fact it's this easy to find other examples so recently means that it's not as scarce as you'd like to think.

Something I've noticed though is that all 4 I've seen have been graded MS-60. This Jeffery Bergelt guy seems to grade pretty conservatively. So maybe a lot of people have cracked these to get better grades out of new holders.

[Marvic]

Something I've noticed though is that all 4 I've seen have been graded MS-60. This Jeffery Bergelt guy seems to grade pretty conservatively. So maybe a lot of people have cracked these to get better grades out of new holders.

I agree, Westin; I'm sure many have cracked these out of those holders and sent the coin to NGC or PCGS...

[kurtspringmann]

Oh this is hilarious, check this out. According to PCGS Price Guide, MS-60 is the LEAST valuable grade. Apparently a VF-20 is worth $5 more:
https://www.pcgs.com/prices/detail/libe ... ost-active

I think this is because circulated grades auto update with spot price and UNC examples need manual update. Which really throws things off because now I have no clue what an MS-60 or 62 is worth over spot. That's how the price tables should work on these. "Spot + $100" not just listing sale prices. It's too inconsistent with the way gold fluctuates.

PCGS does a poor job of actively seeking price change, they rely on reported transactions. After a purchase from a Heritage auction of a 1943 Lincoln MS64 DDO FS-101 at well over the then current PCGS price, I contacted them, provided auction details for mine and two other HA auctions, and PCGS increased the prices for MS60-66 by about 50% to reflect reality in under a day -- including mine to exactly what I had paid with auction fees.

And that anomaly in the way they gather pricing is exactly why the MS60 is shown at a lower price than circulated "bullion" based prices that actively trade.

[Jimbo]

We were told to use gray sheets
But is PGCS really the way to go for pricing.?

[Westin]

We were told to use gray sheets
But is PGCS really the way to go for pricing.?

Don't ya gotta PAY for greysheet? Idk, PCGS price guide and eBay sold listings are free. From there I can figure out what I need to know. If I were a larger scale dealer then yeah, greysheet seems useful.

[Daniel]

Not for this holder, PCGS would not be a good price guide, they're too high on their own graded coins.

[Westin]

Not for this holder, PCGS would not be a good price guide, they're too high on their own graded coins.

I always check the sold auctions to compare, but since I always have the PCGS page up on a tab, it doesn't hurt to see what their number is. I don't take it blindly but it's a decent starting point for more mid range coins.

[Jimbo]

Just please delete my entire account.
I don’t think this form is for us….
We like to leave and delete everything!!!!!’

Thank you everyone for your time and energy

We no longer wish to participate!!!!

Delete delete delete

[Marvic]

Just please delete my entire account.
I don’t think this form is for us….
We like to leave and delete everything!!!!!’

Thank you everyone for your time and energy

We no longer wish to participate!!!!

Delete delete delete

Woow , Jimbo, just when I was beginning to like you!

[Westin]

Just please delete my entire account.
I don’t think this form is for us….
We like to leave and delete everything!!!!!’

Thank you everyone for your time and energy

We no longer wish to participate!!!!

Delete delete delete

This is useful for other people in the future. Just like how I found relevant information for this on other forums from years ago.

[kurtspringmann]

We were told to use gray sheets
But is PGCS really the way to go for pricing.?

It depends what you are buying. I often pay above PCGS for difficult high grade Jefferson full step nickels, difficult full bell line Franklins, and early high grade Lincolns PCGS/CAC. Many of the coins that I'm looking at have populations under 100, so the supply is low but demand is high. Now for average stuff, no, I would be looking closer at the Greysheet. Stated differently, rare stuff commands a premium, and I expect that is true in many series.

[Westin]

We were told to use gray sheets
But is PGCS really the way to go for pricing.?

It depends what you are buying. I often pay above PCGS for difficult high grade Jefferson full step nickels, difficult full bell line Franklins, and early high grade Lincolns PCGS/CAC. Many of the coins that I'm looking at have populations under 100, so the supply is low but demand is high. Now for average stuff, no, I would be looking closer at the Greysheet. Stated differently, rare stuff commands a premium, and I expect that is true in many series.

PCGS price guide has sales listed for each grade. It has links to heritage and stacks for individual coins, and lists their hammer price. Sometimes the toning is great like your iridescent chocolate and blue Lincoln. (I forget the date but I'd know it when I see it) And you'll have "2/19HA $735" or whatever. And you wonder why so much, then you take the link, check the listing and see why that one is above average. You can usually find at least 3 examples with their sold prices there, then some comparable sold ones on eBay. From there you can sorta work out what the value of yours is. For raw gold like this you can see when it sold, then look up the gold price that day, then work out the difference for what the premium was, and apply it to the current price. For raw stuff you'd have to knock it back a proportional amount.

I've had many good dealings, buying and selling, by going off that method. Idk, maybe it's because I'm not in the US, but as someone who isn't a dealer, what is the real point of graysheet when Red Book exists?

[kurtspringmann]

Red Book is very important for information and long period price trends, but the prices in Red Book are well out of date by the time most people get their current copy. It does provide an idea of relative values though. (Funny that you bring up Red Book, I was looking at my first one today from 1961, and I sure wish that I would have picked up some Unc. 1916-D Mercuries then, page attached below.

Greatsheet for me is a guideline for common date and grade where I can sometimes get down near that figure, but I certainly don't expect it for single coins that I really want. But that low price is often a good guide for where to strategically place a bid on HA or Stacks for lots, not so much on GC single coins though as it used to be due to the very large number of bids now from so many collectors looking at individual coin prices. If you are willing to place a lot of bids and lose a lot of them on HA and Stacks for lots of coins (like say 6-12 1945-S MS66 Jeffersons) you can often get them under Greysheet because the next bidder has to exceed you by enough to push them well over what they are willing to pay, considering shipping and the buyers fee. So it is useful but certainly not necessary.

[Westin]

Red Book is very important for information and long period price trends, but the prices in Red Book are well out of date by the time most people get their current copy. It does provide an idea of relative values though. (Funny that you bring up Red Book, I was looking at my first one today from 1961, and I sure wish that I would have picked up some Unc. 1916-D Mercuries then, page attached below.

Greatsheet for me is a guideline for common date and grade where I can sometimes get down near that figure, but I certainly don't expect it for single coins that I really want. But that low price is often a good guide for where to strategically place a bid on HA or Stacks for lots, not so much on GC single coins though as it used to be due to the very large number of bids now from so many collectors looking at individual coin prices. If you are willing to place a lot of bids and lose a lot of them on HA and Stacks for lots of coins (like say 6-12 1945-S MS66 Jeffersons) you can often get them under Greysheet because the next bidder has to exceed you by enough to push them well over what they are willing to pay, considering shipping and the buyers fee. So it is useful but certainly not necessary.

I don't understand how a price can go out of date within a year, but then again the US market is much more active and a lot of pricing information gets published on it. Thanks for the information. I really didn't know pricing gets that competitive.

[kurtspringmann]

You apparently don't spend as much time bidding on GC as I do -- prices change every week and sometimes by substantial amounts for the same exact coin specifications on relatively more common items, just go into the auction archives and it is quite apparent. On EBay, I use set pricing and often get messages asking for a dollar or two off, it is human nature to seek lower prices. My use of videos for coins and baseball stuff, I believe, gives me a competitive advantage by giving the buying higher confidence as I do it to show the surfaces of either but everyone still loves to save a buck.

While I am watching a number of items, my laser focus is already set 11 days out on the 1943/2 Lincoln Cent DDO FS-101 in MS65, and no I will not be trying to save a dollar or two there.

[Earle42]

The value I see in the Red Book has always been having a hard copy with history, grading guides, mintages and price COMPARISONS. The publication was never spot on with prices and always higher than real life. They had to try to make a figure they thought would be valid for a year until they could produce the next hard copy.

The fact is I had stopped buying it for quite some time b/c online prices are up to date.

I definitely advise any and all collectors to have at least one copy, especially newbies. The info inside is invaluable for knowing the hobby.
Speaking of which, and knowing Westin is in this thread, I haven't updated my Charleton for some time.