2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

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2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#1 Unread post by Funky Strike »

Hello all - Funkmeister back from another hunt!

I've had some real fun with slabbed coins lately - Here is my latest:

Got this 2020-W FUN SHOW FDOI ASE - PCGS PR70DCAM - Someone told me 70 is a good number for a grade...

As I looked at the coin I thought the holder was "foggy" - but it's actually the coin! - Reverse is spotless!

What is this? Die Polish? Liberties Skirt is missing all of the lines and the date is hard to read.

As always - thanks for the help - no idea what to do with this one - if it was a fish I would throw it back (I got this from a very prestigious auction btw)

Back to the Hunt!

Michael - The Funkmeister
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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#2 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

maybe you could apply the PCGS Guarantee

https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#3 Unread post by Marilyn$$$* »

Hi....Looks like you could have a mint error coin. Errors are very rare in silver eagles. The skirt should definitely have the lines. Just look up the same coin you have on ebay or anywhere online and you can see what it should look like and what they sell for. Yes, mint 70 grade is the best grade possible, but with that area on the obverse, it's kind of an enigma as to why it would be a MS70. I actually like the coin because it could be a rare find. I would have bought it too! Good luck!

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#4 Unread post by Paul »

This looks like a holder issue to me
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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#5 Unread post by Funky Strike »

As always Paul - I think You're right - I looked at the coin further and the coin itself does look like it's all correct

Here are some close-ups of the blurry area and you can see the lines.

I like monsterbug1's idea of trying to get this fixed via PCGS - Wish me luck!
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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#6 Unread post by Earle42 »

Isn't that fogginess on the holder and not the coin?

BTW...be careful using the so-called PCGS "guarantee." It likely will cost you more money, but it does pretty much guarantee PCGS comes out on top.

The PCGS "guarantee" (quotations on purpose) is a masterful work of marketing art to their advantage. Most people never read it, and it would be very hard to come out on top using it.

Yes. I have read and analyzed it. I have a two page write up on I made for my personal understanding and research about it b/c I wanted to see what this highly touted guarantee was. Needless to say by the tone already set in my reply...I am very unimpressed.

Summary:
The one good point...they do guarantee when they grade a fake as real that they will make legit compensation.

The guarantee is mainly saying PCGS will guarantee the system they claim to use in grading a coin is what they used on your coin (!).

A lot of the rest of the "guarantee" is that if PCGS over graded a coin, and a customer:
1. Actually will question "THE experts."
2. Desires the grade to be dumbed down (uh huh...and lose the perceived value of a higher grade...yeah).

Then the customer pretty much won't come out on top again b/c he either:
1. Keeps the slabbed coin and get paid the difference of "*market value" (uh uh...not what you are thinking...more below) between the two grades

2. PCGS will buy the slabbed coin at what PCGS calls "*market value."

...here it comes...
"*market value" in the text is specificaly stated to mean the value PCGS believes a dealer would pay (PCGS also fails to cite how they come up with this value).

...did you miss it? PCGA really makes out on this option b/c if they so wish, PCGS now can sell the slab at a profit on the buyer's market!

So in other words...if PCGS over grades a coin and buy it back, they can turn it into a profit (mist be nice).

The text also says they will not cover clerical or mechanical errors (!).

So if they made a mistake on the label, guess who pays full fees for it to be corrected? Not PCGS.

And yet one more gem from the website:
"THE PCGS GRADING GUARANTEE DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY CLAIMS BROUGHT OUTSIDE OF THE COURTS OF ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA."

So you HAVE to use the court system PCGs designates if you are actually going to try to make them stick to the terms of what they "guarantee."

There is more complexity in all of this...but that is a decent summary.

Read it for yourself and take notes like I did. I first started to suspect something fishy when reading online forums of people using the "guarantee."
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#7 Unread post by Paul »

I am still at a loss for the moderate and above "COIN" collectors that are so wrapped up in slabs.

I do get why the novice collectors are mesmerized by the "Label" inside of the plastic container holding the lump of metal........ because they are slab collectors.

I know people have said it a million times: "Buy the Coin Not the Slab"!

Come on everyone, stop bashing the TPG's, after all, it's just a sealed plastic container!
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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#8 Unread post by Funky Strike »

I have to admit PCGS - and NGC - but mostly PCGS have been a friend to me since I've started hunting!

I get more over graded "BU" ("baloney") as I call them coins from unslabbed coins then I do from graded coins.

I am a member of PCGS - full disclosure I guess - I've sent them dozens of coins I find in "the wild" get them graded and turn around and sell them for a decent $$$

I can't do that with the newer coins - I basically find them graded - usually by someone dumping them - which is what happened on this auction - I got a bunch of these for $75 / $80 - they'll all sell for over $140 - $150 pretty easy

I lean on the PCGS website for quality pictures of coins - latest upfront pricing (especially auction prices) and some history / info on a coin - like mintage

As always though - you guys help me with the real stuff - I always do appreciate it - I read most of the postings and try my best to learn - I also help when I can

Thanks again - back to the Hunt!

Michael - The Funkmeister

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#9 Unread post by Paul »

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#10 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

Earle42 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:55 am Isn't that fogginess on the holder and not the coin?

BTW...be careful using the so-called PCGS "guarantee." It likely will cost you more money, but it does pretty much guarantee PCGS comes out on top.

The PCGS "guarantee" (quotations on purpose) is a masterful work of marketing art to their advantage. Most people never read it, and it would be very hard to come out on top using it.

Yes. I have read and analyzed it. I have a two page write up on I made for my personal understanding and research about it b/c I wanted to see what this highly touted guarantee was. Needless to say by the tone already set in my reply...I am very unimpressed.

Summary:
The one good point...they do guarantee when they grade a fake as real that they will make legit compensation.

The guarantee is mainly saying PCGS will guarantee the system they claim to use in grading a coin is what they used on your coin (!).

A lot of the rest of the "guarantee" is that if PCGS over graded a coin, and a customer:
1. Actually will question "THE experts."
2. Desires the grade to be dumbed down (uh huh...and lose the perceived value of a higher grade...yeah).

Then the customer pretty much won't come out on top again b/c he either:
1. Keeps the slabbed coin and get paid the difference of "*market value" (uh uh...not what you are thinking...more below) between the two grades

2. PCGS will buy the slabbed coin at what PCGS calls "*market value."

...here it comes...
"*market value" in the text is specificaly stated to mean the value PCGS believes a dealer would pay (PCGS also fails to cite how they come up with this value).

...did you miss it? PCGA really makes out on this option b/c if they so wish, PCGS now can sell the slab at a profit on the buyer's market!

So in other words...if PCGS over grades a coin and buy it back, they can turn it into a profit (mist be nice).

The text also says they will not cover clerical or mechanical errors (!).

So if they made a mistake on the label, guess who pays full fees for it to be corrected? Not PCGS.

And yet one more gem from the website:
"THE PCGS GRADING GUARANTEE DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY CLAIMS BROUGHT OUTSIDE OF THE COURTS OF ORANGE COUNTY, CALIFORNIA."

So you HAVE to use the court system PCGs designates if you are actually going to try to make them stick to the terms of what they "guarantee."

There is more complexity in all of this...but that is a decent summary.

Read it for yourself and take notes like I did. I first started to suspect something fishy when reading online forums of people using the "guarantee."
I read through it myself, and it is pretty rough to say the least. Might I ask, in your opinion, which of the TPG's has the "best" guarantee

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#11 Unread post by Funky Strike »

I contacted PCGS - sent them the pictures of the coin - same as I posted here - They said the best they can do is to have me send it in on the Reholder program - so that's $13 plus I have to mail it - more like $20 / $25 - I still may do that

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#12 Unread post by Earle42 »

There are ways of restoring the plastic which can be used and it likely would be less expensive. I have not done it myself, but read of others looking online and finding ways to do it. Its just plastic and plastic can be polished. I think I heard of one person using a headlight restoration kit (which also can be researched and done less expensively than buying a pre-packaged kit.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#13 Unread post by Earle42 »

I read through it myself, and it is pretty rough to say the least. Might I ask, in your opinion, which of the TPG's has the "best" guarantee
I have not read the others simply b/c when I started to research the companies, I figured if the one that the market says is "best" (for whatever reason) has a good guarantee and is a legitimate business, then I would, if I ever needed one, choose what the market values the most.

I have no need for a grading company and do not see that changing in the future. Now if the AI system gets up and going and coins get ACTUAL grades...that might be different.

I have done a lot of homework over the past 10 years concerning mainly PCGS since it seems most slab collectors put that company as the best one (for whatever reasons). See my PDF file in my signature for how I research and make conclusions. The material is from the PCGS website, linked to, and shows a a lot of people have been taken for an awful lot of money while PCGS cannot be held accountable. Too many people just trust the companies b/c "everybody does." There are coins from their own website improperly attributed that have sold for thousands and are rookie level mistakes.

And although the report focuses on PCGS, NGC slabs can easily be found with the same mistake on them.

The more homework I did with trusted dealers/friends (and a couple were former graders), the more and more I understood like so many other businesses nowadays, the practices by PCGS are something I could not personally offer in a business and sleep soundly at night.

I understand how a legitimate dealer uses slabbing services to make some legitimate profits. But I wonder how of those people are out there are like Daniel who does NOT rely upon the label. If he thinks a coin should be MSXX, sends it in and it comes back as what he graded it at, then he prices it as such. But he also has had coins on his site he thought were MSXX and the slabbers gave a lesser grade on the label. So Daniel sells them at the lesser grade. Reputation is important to legitimate businesses like his.

If Daniel resent a coin back in he believes should be the higher grade, and it very well might come back that grade, its likely going to cost him more in the long run. So he sells at the lower grade.

If I was a dealer using a company to make profits, I would do it like Daniel does.

As to which company? I currently don't use one. I also am not trying to make profit from coin sales either though.

I do not want my bette coins in slabs since slabs are not air tight, therefore slabs are not the best protection. My coins I want to keep nice stay in Air -Tite capsules.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#14 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

Earle42-

That makes sense. However, I, sadly, have to rely on such a company, as to truly authenticate and guarantee the authenticity of certain key date/ key variety coins I got for a bargain. For example, one would be foolish to buy or sell a 1937 D 3 legged buffalo in the VF range raw, both because of authenticity concerns(I have came across fakes, and they are not too hard to manufacture) and, for sellers, a significantly lower price of sale.

Thus, I am trying to figure out which of the TPG's is the "least shady" or "not as bad as the others"

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#15 Unread post by Earle42 »

I understand what you are saying. The companies have a pretty good track record for well known (like the 3-leg) coins for authentication. For this type of service, they are a good option for people who have no time to actually study the fake coins for themselves.

I admit I may be proven wrong sometime, but after a lot of (fun) research into them, I feel very confident I could ID a fake IN HAND without too much problem. I have also, on another forum helped ID fakes from photos specifically using graphic overlays plus drawing lines from one detail to another on a legit coin's pic and then copy/pasting that onto a suspect coin b/c no one can make a perfect design copy (especially down to the die markers if the coin passes the above test). Even the pictures of the famous gold Omega man coins cannot pass that last test, and b/c back then hardly anyone (at all?) had access to the graphics tools we do today, those Omega Man coins fooled the entire hobby for many years.

A key thing to remember is that these companies are out to stay in business FIRST. They have no magic. And "anyone can learn to grade." That quotation is from former PCGS president Ron Guth (will look up the reference and share if you want).

Just be careful when using them to make sure you "do the math." Also and from reading other experiences by other people on another forum, if I was going to send a good coin in, I would make dead sure to have good pictures of it so I could compare the coin with what was in the slab.

I am NOT saying they make a habit of swapping coins, I am saying that there have been people get them back damaged by the company and, of course, the company gave them a VERY hard time about their claims. Pictures would have solved the problems. I likely would also include the pics inside my submission.

For a dealer and high volume, this is impractical. But for one or two every now and then, I see pics as a must if its a really good coin.
Thus, I am trying to figure out which of the TPG's is the "least shady" or "not as bad as the others"
My opinion is only my opinion. And I admit it might be tainted by my own research and disgust in some area of what I have found.
For making profit, the mass market like eBay thinks PCGS is "best" somehow, so their slabs can sell for more. NGC is typically seen as second.
I like the fact ANACS seems, what I interpret as, less greedy by requiring a paid membership.

The truth is I believed they were a scam when they started out b/c they were a group of self proclaimed experts setting themselves up as THE authorities and redefining the way the hobby had been smoothly running for ages. Slabs took the focus off of every coin having its own value/historical importance b/c of mintages/mint marks and focused the hobby onto the keys (I never heard the term junk silver applied to anything but 1964 coins until they came along). I personally still see them as simply a side issue to the hobby who exist to profit off of collectors, won't take responsibility ("guarantee") for their "work.", won't use a scientific method (likely it would kill profits), and have only come to be generally accepted b/c the internet coming of age put their product out in front of the "Ooh SHINY!" masses who then poured money into the companies.

They are now large enough there are some legit things they do. The educational resources they supply are amazing! And for some who just like the (and they do look very nice) collecting of slabs, they make another niche to ENJOY...and that's what hobbies are about :)
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#16 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

of course. I sell on ebay, and, especially when dealing with rarities, it is far, far, far safer and easier to pay to have them slabbed. Believe me, the only coin I have sent in was said 3 legged buffalo to this point, which I got rather extremely cheap(found in bulk bin; will be making a post about it when it returns). It is less about authenticating a coin for myself and more about doing so for potential customers.

As for your method of detecting fakes, it seems extremely thorough but not foolproof, especially if the variety involves something being missing(no FG, 3 legged, 22 no D, etc). If someone were to ever get ahold of a wheat cent D or S mint mark punch, something of the like may also be able to avoid detection by even your methods(and, from what I have seen, probably even the TPG's methods, considering how many obvious mistakes they have made)

From what I am understanding, PCGS is the best for the true rarities and ANACS might be decent for the 50/50 coins, where it MIGHT be something good but there is also a decent chance it is "cleaned" or "questionable color" or something of the like

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#17 Unread post by Paul »

"If someone were to ever get ahold of a wheat cent D or S mint mark punch, something of the like may also be able to avoid detection by even your methods(and, from what I have seen, probably even the TPG's methods, considering how many obvious mistakes they have made)".......???
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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#18 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

Sorry if I am unclear or misinformed. I am speaking of the tooling that was used by the mint to create the mint marks for the coin dies. since some of these dies have already been obtained by the public at large( and have been used to create private restrikes), or else have been manufactured artificially using coins of that year. If, for example, the 1909 wheat cent obverse die were to be obtained, as well as an "S" mint mark punch, such a mint mark could be punched into the die. Then, an adept counterfeiter could obtain 1909 VDB's in relatively poor condition(so that no die markers remain), strike the obverse of these coins with this die and then artificially wear the new obverses as to match the heavily circulated reverse

Or am I misinformed, uneducated, or mistaking? Please do let me know

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#19 Unread post by Earle42 »

it seems extremely thorough but not foolproof, especially if the variety involves something being missing(no FG, 3 legged, 22 no D, etc)
I agree 100% about it not being foolproof.

The other issues are also not hard to detect when you know what to look for. It just takes an interest and researching.

The Buffalo you mention, and I have a modern faked one, is easy to tell form the die markers. I bought a fake one for cheap years ago. Mushy details, no die markers, etc. make it easy to see its a fake when you know what to look for. A legit specimen has a die markers on it that, Iso I was told by a friend dealer as he showed it to me, makes it look like the buffalo is relieving his bladder. Most people don;t even see it until they know what to look for and then a three legged fake sticks out like a sore thumb.

As to duplicating die marks then...
Daniel Carr makes overstrike coins (among minting other things) of many types including a lot that are "fantasy coins...such as his 1964 D Benjamin Franklin half and many others.

I do not know if you have ever seen/held one of this overstrikes (I have some), but they appear in hand to be flawless duplicates of the design. Even under magnification a lot of these look just as good as an US mint product. After all, in the past he designed some US coins, and also makes his on the used Denver press the mint sold him.

Something he once said on a forum has stuck with me. The idea of what he was saying was in response to someone not understanding the law and why it is legal for him to do what he does. They said if Mr. Carr wanted to, his work was good enough to make duplicates of the actual rare coins.

Considering the extensive work he has done in making reproductions of the designs, Mr. Carr said it is impossible to make a perfect copy using any tooling. The attempt at copying minute details mixed with the known die markers will always give away a fake to those who know what to look for. I trust his word considering if he wanted to, he likely could be the best counterfeiter of rare coins in modern times. And even he says he cannot make a perfect copy.


Removed mint marks?
Mint mark fakes are not hard to detect either when you know what to look for.
Mint marks have been glued on...but positioning, font, and orientation all can show a fake.

Carved mint marks is done sometimes by removing surface metal and leaving a small lump in the center. The lump is carved to look like a mint mark. But the tooling marks in the field, though possible to polish away for the most part, are almost impossible to hide (as is the change of color in the metal that was exposed). Ten there is the nagging problem of the impossible to remove microscopic carving marks closest to the fabricated mint mark.

And almost assuredly (and again the same problems) that carved MM is almost assuredly not going to be the correct font, or have proper positioning in the locations for legitimate coins of that year/MM.

Mint marks can be added by gluing them on or using a tool to go inside (drilled hole) from the rim of the coin and a special plier-like tool is made to stamp the MM upward from the inside out. The positioning of these w.r.t. the rest of the elements gives them away as can the font of the mint mark. If the push up method was used an inspection of where the rim had to be repaired usually can be seen as well.

Its all about doing the homework and knowing what simple things to look for to detect fakes. I went further and bought some to study (when they were less than 2.00 ea. (free shipping) on eBay when they still allowed them being sold as reproductions).

Counterfeit 1879 Morgan

Counterfeit 1932 D .25

Good and fun reading:
Counterfeit detection series
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#20 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

makes sense, Earle, especially the bit about and from Mr. Carr

I am still wondering, however, not about the perfect fake, but the fake that appears so heavily circulated(poor 01, fair 02, etc.) that it is impossible to tell that it is fake

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Re: 2020-W Silver Eagle PR70DCAM or D-SHAM?

#21 Unread post by Earle42 »

I admit I have not handled any of these poor or fair fake coins myself. So I cannot say from experience.

If the fake's weight and measurement were correct (magnetism etc.) I assume graphic overlays or the line method I came up might still be a pretty good indicator for die-struck or cast coins weathered to look old.

So far, and as far as we know, there have been no fake, for example, 1916-Ds that, though graded low on the scale, have been able to get under the radar. Most of the worn fakes are easy to tell from the inside shape of the D mint mark in this case.

For the hardest cases I believe an XRF spectrometer is sued to analyze a coin. However, even then the companies will not sometimes commit. Look up the 1959 Wheat penny...very interesting...and no grading company will commit to it being real or fake. They just don't know.

I do know that so far telling most fakes has not been difficult. That may change in the future. But I feel pretty good even the fake Omega Man coins, some of the best fakes ever made, can be detected from pictures and the line method I mentioned.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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