False Doubling
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Here's a link to how to post a topic with images in our community https://coinauctionshelp.com/welcome-to ... community/
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You also agree to follow these guidelines. You must agree to these rules to be a member of this forum. NO SPAM! Spam is deleted within minutes, no spam will ever be left in our community.
1. Post a front and back image of your coin with a specific question about what you’re seeing or asking about and one coin per topic.
2. Please remove coin from the holder unless it’s US or an official mint case or unless it is graded by a grading service.
3. Images should be taken by a camera or cell phone camera, we ask that members don’t use images through a microscope screen.
4. Always start your own topic, please don’t ask about your coin or post your coin in someone else’s coin topic.
5. Do not send private messages about your coin unless an Admin ask you too and the same for sending emails through the board.
6. No spam. Do not post any links to your coin or other non-coin websites.
7. Always be respectful even if something makes you upset or you don’t agree with a member. You can always get a second opinion elsewhere. If you have an issue then politely ask an admin in an PM. PM’s are for issues, technical and personal, but not for coin questions (refer to number 5 on this list). Our community is not a soap box for complaining or drama, so please refrain from doing so here.[/size]
- mhonzell
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False Doubling
I know this has been discussed a billion times, so please ignore if you've already got it down pat.
Many times Daniel points out that what we (me included) think is doubling is either Abraded Die or Strike Doubling.
Abraded Die is the result of a mint employee polishing a die with grit to remove indications of a die clash. Polishing the surface is performed with a flexible surface (such as a fingertip) and results in uneven pressure, especially where surfaces are depressed into the die. This polishing wears off the sharp edge between the flat surface and the indentation. Now, when the die is used metal flows into this angled edge area and creates a "ghost" of the item. Similarily, Die Deterioration, can result in ghosts as those same egdes wear away over time.
Strike Doubling is caused by the die moving slightly as the pressure is released after striking the planchet. The actual imprint on the coin is the lower, "doubled" imprint. But, due to the die movement, as the pressure is released, the die cuts into the raised surface, displacing the object and leaving a very flat "doubling" with a sharp shelf-like edge. That movement is never exactly the same on two coins. So, it is considered damage, not doubling.
Here's my rendition of the process:
Many times Daniel points out that what we (me included) think is doubling is either Abraded Die or Strike Doubling.
Abraded Die is the result of a mint employee polishing a die with grit to remove indications of a die clash. Polishing the surface is performed with a flexible surface (such as a fingertip) and results in uneven pressure, especially where surfaces are depressed into the die. This polishing wears off the sharp edge between the flat surface and the indentation. Now, when the die is used metal flows into this angled edge area and creates a "ghost" of the item. Similarily, Die Deterioration, can result in ghosts as those same egdes wear away over time.
Strike Doubling is caused by the die moving slightly as the pressure is released after striking the planchet. The actual imprint on the coin is the lower, "doubled" imprint. But, due to the die movement, as the pressure is released, the die cuts into the raised surface, displacing the object and leaving a very flat "doubling" with a sharp shelf-like edge. That movement is never exactly the same on two coins. So, it is considered damage, not doubling.
Here's my rendition of the process:
- mhonzell
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Re: False Doubling
Okay... quiz time... widegrin
Is the following coin showing:
1) Abraded Die
2) Strike Doubling
3) Die Doubling (edited: maybe I should have said "Doubled Die")
Is the following coin showing:
1) Abraded Die
2) Strike Doubling
3) Die Doubling (edited: maybe I should have said "Doubled Die")
Last edited by mhonzell on Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: False Doubling
...I'm gonna go out on a short limb here and say............none of the above, it be a doubled die on account I thunk I saw some notching... widegrin
- mhonzell
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Re: False Doubling
Notching is a term related to doubling that is exhibited when a letter has squared off corners. The rounded edge runs into it's double and creates a notch in the character. (see below)
Strike doubling can give you a two-pointed corner, but not the notch.
With that... I'm not sure where you are seeing notching in that photo. Since I get this call wrong a lot, it would help if you point it out for me.
Strike doubling can give you a two-pointed corner, but not the notch.
With that... I'm not sure where you are seeing notching in that photo. Since I get this call wrong a lot, it would help if you point it out for me.
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Re: False Doubling
Clarification on this stuff is always a bonus. Thanks!
I chose the picture for the quiz because I also thought it had machine doubling (strike doubling) and abraded die characteristics. But, if you look at the R in TRUST, you can see a definite split in the serifs on the right leg. Splits cannot be caused by Strike Doubling or Abraded Die. The coin is graded and labeled as a DDO as a result. So, most likely, it is all three.
Sorry the photo is fuzzy, but it is straight from eBay and what I'm typically working with when looking for a variety. Wanted to give realisitic conditions... widegrin
I chose the 1971 because it was a coin in contention. "All the leading authorities" have declared this as an abraded die. Cherrypickers Guide still lists it as a doubled die. It is "at the boundary" and requires each individual to make a decision on it. As a result, submitting it is iffy, at best. Look at the Y in LIBERTY (right side of leg.) There, the heavy abrasion is more evident and looks more like the typical "ghost" doubling.
I'm including a Jefferson nickel below with both Abraded Die and Die Deterioration that might help. Notice the doubling in both directions on the T. I think PALH1 describes this as "mushy."
I chose the picture for the quiz because I also thought it had machine doubling (strike doubling) and abraded die characteristics. But, if you look at the R in TRUST, you can see a definite split in the serifs on the right leg. Splits cannot be caused by Strike Doubling or Abraded Die. The coin is graded and labeled as a DDO as a result. So, most likely, it is all three.
Sorry the photo is fuzzy, but it is straight from eBay and what I'm typically working with when looking for a variety. Wanted to give realisitic conditions... widegrin
I chose the 1971 because it was a coin in contention. "All the leading authorities" have declared this as an abraded die. Cherrypickers Guide still lists it as a doubled die. It is "at the boundary" and requires each individual to make a decision on it. As a result, submitting it is iffy, at best. Look at the Y in LIBERTY (right side of leg.) There, the heavy abrasion is more evident and looks more like the typical "ghost" doubling.
I'm including a Jefferson nickel below with both Abraded Die and Die Deterioration that might help. Notice the doubling in both directions on the T. I think PALH1 describes this as "mushy."
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- 1971 Abraded Die.jpg (34.44 KiB) Viewed 5003 times
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- Jefferson Die Deterioration.jpg (48.46 KiB) Viewed 5002 times
- Daniel
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Re: False Doubling
I'm not sure where you are seeing notching in that photo.
...top and bottom of the "G" and the bottom of the "R" in 'in God we trust'
...top and bottom of the "G" and the bottom of the "R" in 'in God we trust'
- mhonzell
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Re: False Doubling
I'll have to give you the notching. I don't see it.
What I have found though is that the more experience you get at seeing these details, the easier it is to recognize them. Good job, fwd!
What I have found though is that the more experience you get at seeing these details, the easier it is to recognize them. Good job, fwd!
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Re: False Doubling
I asked Daniel if I could upload a few images of more false doubling. Starting with two different 1969S Penny's and so on. The last one is a 1993 D penny. You might have to zoom in ...
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