Morgan Dollars

[geraldh61]

Hi everybody, Call anyone give me some insight how a 1885-CC Morgan Dollar, graded MS65 by PCGS could end up with no breast feathers? Thank you, Jerry

[Daniel]

Contrary to what many coin collectors claim, grading a mint state coin has to do with contact marks more than luster, depth of strike or toning. Each grading service has their own criteria for grading coins and key dates seem to get more liberal grading from PCGS.

It appears to me that your 1885-CC is a weakly struck coin, but it must have very few contact marks. I often wonder about each grading service's standards and how they came up with the grade for certain coins. But if PCGS gradec it MS65, then that's the grade, but do to the weak breast feathers, the coin will sale for less of a premium than a coin with full breast feathers.

[TCOYEN]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM.......

[marc.durante]

Hello and welcome to the forum!!!

I appologize for the long post ... feel free not to read it :C

this topic falls somewhat in line with some things I've been thinking about and figured I'd reply here instead of posting a new thread ...... and just to mention again I am a complete newbie to coin collecting ... but am not a newbie when it comes to computers and software.

I've been reading a lot of information about grading recently and it seems pretty obvious that a "grade" is very much in the eye of the beholder. If PCGS or whoever grades a coin MS65 or something and you were to block out the grade and pass it to 10 other highly experienced numismatists there's a very good chance they would grade it quite differently ... and again from what I read many similar "studies" have been done and that's the exact result basically every time ... the range being quite dramatic sometimes.

I completely understand there has to be some "official" standard especially when it comes to buying and selling and I understand people like to see those logos and grades on slabs .... but as far as the actual quality of a coin goes it changes person by person and even one's personal tastes and preferences (which are also in a state of constant change) plays a factor in what one will "see" and deem appealing or not ....

I know I'm showing my newbieness and naivety ..... but I put much more effort and energy into pursuing "common sense" in things I find to be interesting than in money, etc .... find it's much easier to adapt to life and be happy that way :wave

... so .... not taking into account the protection/conservation aspects you get from a slab ... basically as far as I'm concerned I would just as well print out a nice little sticker with some information on the coin and maybe make some nice little logo or something and on it I'd put 'Graded G6 by Daniel' or something. I'm joking of course but just trying explain my point ... probably not very clearly as I tend to write how I thinking :confused:

Again let me be the first to say I'm aware I'm probably the last person to be chiming in and as I've mentioned before do not even have one graded coin .... but figured this is what these forums are for ... sharing thoughts ...

From reading a lot of the different numismatic related forums it's obvious a lot of people send the same coins in several times hoping to get a better grade either by a different grading service or the same one ... also seems that many times they in fact do get a different grade ... though not always in their favor.

So back to my original point on what I've been thinking about ... I've searched a bit and saw some other people talking about it but they all seemed to dismiss it and I wanted to know what the people here thought ( I did try searching for 'facial' to see if there was already a discussion about this but didn't find anything ) .... using facial recognition software to grade coins?

The most difficult and actually more time consuming than difficult is gathering the information ....but it's all pretty much readily available and it's only a matter of organizing and "linking" it properly. Not sure if anyone's seen the 20? game where you think of something and the little ball thing (they have a website too I think) asks you some 'yes/no' type questions and within 20 questions it supposed to guess what your thinking. It's based on Neural Network Artificial Intelligence and is actually very accurate. Does the same type of associations the human brain does to come up with a decision based on prior knowledge (an evolving database in this case). Features like shine, gloss, reflectivity can all be accurately measured and as long as you had a baseline to go against matching physical characteristics, raised lowered points etc .. should also be easy.

I'm sure something like this already exists but I drew up plans for a small high resolution camera mount and track system to take a 360 degree high res image of a coin so it can be viewed and spun in 3D around any axis.

As my wife and family can tell you as with all my other ideas it will sit in my book and I'll move on to thinking up and drawing the next one ... that I'll never do anything with .... this little guy seems fitting :eureka:

OK .. almost done ... the costs may be prohibitive but with the amount of money spent on some of coins it seems like in some cases it might be worth it. Plus the 20? game costs under $20 so the NN AI can't be that expensive and there are actually a lot of free solutions available. Mostly for the stock market industry but could be easily modified for this.

So some AI Facial recognition software plus high resolution imaging should be able to provide you with an accurate grade for any coin ... and while the initial grade itself may not be agreed upon by everyone .. never is anyway ... what this could provide that no "person" based grading can is consistency! If I took the same coin (assuming it hasn't been drastically changed in any way) and put it in this "magic machine" :D 100 different times .. I should get the same exact grade 100 times. That would be the goal at least ..... and it could still always be "confirmed" by eye.

Oh and one more somewhat related point on "population reports" .... after reading how many people crack open and resubmit coins many times over I have to believe the population reports cannot be very accurate and are a "population estimate" at best?

Thanks for anyone who actually made it through that ... I'll be sending out Tylenol to whoever wants!

[Daniel]

I found your post fascinating, and I have entertained the same thoughts many time. I think software and laser scans for grading don't work because the "big boys" don't want that much consistency. I think they care more about the 10%20% resubmission fees than getting the grade correct every time. And there's no room for manipulating the market by accurate software coin id and grade.

I own slabbed coins, and I just sent a Quarter that was graded Special Mint Set (SP66) by PCGS and it came back SP67. I sent the coin in twice because I still think the coin is SP68. I have resubmitted several coins, and some cross graded, and 99% of the time I got a different grade. It didn't matter which company, all struggle with consistency.

[TCOYEN]

I agree. I am certain they know more times than not if they look at the same coin twice. They catalog everything I am sure. They know they make lots off of resubmissions..yet people still keep paying and sending coins back to get re-graded and stuffing their pockets. Myself I can't see paying to re-submit cause I would have to add that cost to the coin and it won't take long before the cost is more than you will ever be able to sell the coin for.

[Daniel]

You're correct for the most part, but many of the coins resubmitted are worth several hundred to a few thousand in the next grade.

[TCOYEN]

Well then I guess it would be worth it. But I don't think I would ever have one of those less I dug it up somewhere :w but I think that might not happen but would be cool

[marc.durante]

I'm sure your absolutely right and resubmissions must account for a lot of their profits so would make sense they wouldn't want consistency as far as a corporation and making a profit goes .... wonder how many people working at these third party graders actually collect coins .... or how many of them were/are collectors who invested a few grand in a sonic welder and started their own?? Besides the Big 3/4 can't believe how many others there are!

Also surprised to learn that any spaces inside slabs are not vacuum sealed. Been "studying" sonic welders for officially about an hour so again so I really know knothing but it seems being able to both sonically weld and vacuum seal holders at the same time should be simple. Another option would be to fill the spaces with different gasses or something depending on the type of coin .... just seems to me they should and could be doing more than they are. I get their point of view in not wanting things to be too consistent so conditions are more "controllable" for them and thus profits greater ... I'm just surprised that collectors, some spending tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars are content with what amounts to a plastic case and an opinion ... apparently neither of which are air tight ... but then what opinion is. Do you get a "nicer" or fancier holder if you spend more money? Doesn't seem like it and as with most other businesses the ones with the most fanfare and publicity get the most business ... the product or service you get means less.

I'm sure things are better off now that there are at least some kind of standards but I seems the smartest move for anyone looking to have their coins graded ... besides being fortunate enough to be friends with the "Big Wigs" ... might be to try and find out the schedules or something of the graders who are known to be "most generous" and try to somehow time your coins to get into their hands :D as often as possible.

Funny I came across an article online talking about PCGS's "The Expert" and was going to post it but did a search on here and found the same article already posted and discussed ... so I won't bring it up again ... just wanted to mention they must at least not be completely against the idea (some of them at least) ... I found two patents submitted by PCGS for 'Automated coin grading system' only five years after they were founded ...

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5224176.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5220614.html

Read though some of it and assume it's somehow related to The Expert but they were submitted 1-2 years after is was released so maybe not. From what I read it seems to have been a pretty half alec attempt at computer "aided" grading. Seems they stopped it fairly quickly, did they say why? Anyone know of anyone that had a Morgan actually graded by it?

Looks like a few years before PCGS the Cing Corporation submitted a patent for a "Method and system for objectively grading and identifying coins" ... description didn't make much sense to me so I didn't read any more about it .. and they don't exist anymore at least not by that name. CompuGrade also looks to have had a crack at computer grading but only lasted a couple months before going belly up. Regardless seems like only a matter of time and who knows they probably already have something and just waiting to get as many coins as possible slabbed or reslabbed ... then once there "content" come out with some big announcement and some deal to have all your coins regraded ... yet again ... for the last time :laughbounce

May be "common knowledge" but this site is pretty cool and shows examples of the different slabs different third party graders have used .... http://www.sampleslabs.com/index.php

A number I would be curious to know would be a population report on how many different people have had coins slabbed period. Willing to bet a good chunk of them are all submitted by a fairly small group of people.

[Daniel]

I researched grading services and complied a huge data base of holders from different companies, and it's amazing how many there. Here's my link http://coinauctionshelp.com/page16.html

[TCOYEN]

Holy cow Mildred that is way too many...... :swear I am sure most of them just call themselves grading companies just to over price coins....

[Daniel]

Now this is exactly what I never thought would happen when it come to PCGS, click this link http://www.pcgs.com/secureplus.html

[TCOYEN]

I agree I never seen that coming... :confused:

[marc.durante]

Wow that is some list and a LOT more than i thought!! Well if I do ever send anything in to get graded by any of them I'll be sure to do it under a different name :bouncing:

[ciscokid]

MY 85CC WAS SHOWN TOO PEOPLE IN THREE COIN CLUBS MORE THAN ONCE AND THE BEST GRADE WAS MS-62. TOOK IT TOO THE ANA SHOW AND LET TWO ANACS GRADERS LOOK IT OVER AND THEY GAVE IT MS-63, ASKED WHAT THEY SAW THAT THE OTHERS DID NOT THEIR REPLY WAS THE FEATHERS ON THE LEGS WERE GOOD ENOUGH TOO GIVE IT THEIR GRADE. THE BREAST FEATHERS ON THIS COIN ARE VERY FAINT.

GOOD READ BUT NOT ENOUGH TOO CHANGE MY MIND AND DO AWAY WITH THE HUMAN ELEMENT IMO.

[coinstar]

The whole plus issue, is an atempt to control the market not ot keep out under or over grade of a coin, there greedy and thats it!!!