1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

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HammeredCoins
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1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#1 Unread post by HammeredCoins »

Hello everyone! I recently posted a question about a coin die that I had in a different thread and I appreciated everyone’s kind responses so I wanted to share another find of mine and ask all you US coin experts for your thoughts.

A few years back, I was able to acquire something that I thought was super rare and special for my coin die collection. It was a complete pair (the obverse and reverse) for the 1916 US Buffalo nickel!

I was highly skeptical when I first saw it, but after taking all of the measurements and closely examining them under a microscope, I was pretty sure these were the real deal.

What also made me thin that they were real was the fact that from the little research that I did (I am a ancient coin specialist so my knowledge is lacking when it comes to Buffalo nickels), these do not seem at all rare and while the 1916 seems to be a better date, it certainly didn’t seem to me that they are all that special. If these were Morgan Dollar dies or something much more sought after by collectors, I almost certainly would have known they were fake.

Anyway, I took these dies to the best known dealer in US dies and unfortunately he told me he was 90% sure they were fake. I totally respect his opinion and accept that at this point. One of those, if it’s too good to be true scenarios.

So seeing that these are Chinese fakes, my question to the group is: Why would anyone bother with all that effort to forge a coin as common as this? Is there something notable about the 1916 Buffalo nickels that make it worth faking?

If not, I think it’s an even bigger worry for the hobby that if the Chinese will go to these lengths to make a PERFECT Buffalo nickel fake, than pretty much everything should be called into question.

And when I mean a perfect fake, I mean that I bought a original 1916 and compared under a microscope and also placed the coin on the die and it was a perfect fit. The coin would lock into the die as if it had been pressed by that die.

Anyway, here are my pictures.

Cheers!
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#2 Unread post by Daniel »

Thanks for sharing, fake or not, I would love to have a uncancelled die pair. I've been toying around with making something for my videos.

The Chinese use actual coins to make the dies so it should fit into the cavities and they make common date fakes for the same reason you reacted to it, disbelief.
Most people don't consider common coins would be counterfeited so they don't pay much attention to them, like they would a key date.
So you can pass off more fake and it's also a form of art to some, to created counterfeit coins. So there's not many rules in this area of fraud.

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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#3 Unread post by HammeredCoins »

Thanks so much for your response Daniel!

If you would ever like to use them in one of your videos, I would be happy to mail them to you to play around with!

Just let me know!
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#4 Unread post by Iceresistance »

That is a 1916-D Uncancelled Die! Cancelled dies are likely to be more genuine since they usually have the classic 'X' mark on them.
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#5 Unread post by Flowstar13 »

Amazing. I think that's beautiful. I don't think those are fake. If they are they're really really good.

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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#6 Unread post by DSCoins »

I do have just one question on this Die is it Incurs or Raised? I can not tell from the photos. Still a grate find.
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#7 Unread post by silverbul »

crazy thing come to mind, a blank nickel planchet off ebay and a bottle jack, but that's just me.

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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#8 Unread post by JTCC »

silverbul wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:08 am crazy thing come to mind, a blank nickel planchet off ebay and a bottle jack, but that's just me.
Yes, interesting, but I doubt the legality of such operations.
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#9 Unread post by HammeredCoins »

It is all sunken in. As I said in my earlier post, you can take a original 1916 nickel and place it on the die and the coin will interlock into the the die because it’s a perfect negative of the coin.
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#10 Unread post by HammeredCoins »

That’s what fooled me Flowstar! But Daniel said the Chinese use original coins to produce these dies. I don’t know how exactly, but as we all know, where there is a will, there’s a way!
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#11 Unread post by Paul »

Just to chime in here.....

Do you recall "Where" or "Who" you purchased these dies from?

I have had several more experienced collectors that have purchased coins on the web, send me their more common dates that were Nongenuine.
Of course these were "Non-Key Dates", but in an extremely high MS grade..... Which is why I think they do this...... as the collector value is there.

I always try to look for a COA when I buy items online, specifically a numbered COA that I can match up with something else I find online.

As has been mentioned, if you can think of it, their copying it........ somewhere
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#12 Unread post by silverbul »

give me a handful of no date buffalo nickels and a sledge hammer. i could have tons of fun. even see how it would look as an overstrike, die clash on a new jefferson nickel. for curiosity purposes only. i think you can mess around with it and not have any issues as long as you don't represent anything as a mint error. look what daniel carr does. jmo. do some research.

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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#13 Unread post by HammeredCoins »

Yeah Paul, I got it from some one off antique dealer. I 100% knew I was taking a chance with it being fake so I certainly wasn’t shocked when that was the consensus.

I just didn’t think it would be worth it for anyone to go through the trouble to fake such a random coin, but alas you all have made it clear that the Chinese even fake these unremarkable dates/coins.

But yeah, I bet when you find a MS68 of this coin, one now has to really wonder. And if they use the correct planchette, no way NGC or PCGS can ID as fake
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#14 Unread post by Daniel »

All the common date fakes and counterfeits I find are purposely worn down or cleaned, high grade coins make it difficult to hide the imperfections so you rarely see them counterfeit for high grade reasons. It has happened but it draws too much attention when a bunch of look alike BU type coins are submitted or sold.

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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#15 Unread post by Earle42 »

Another thing to consider is that the fakers sell complete sets of fakes as well.

Years ago when Chinese company Big Tree was allowed to sell their copies on eBay, I contacted the seller and started to research. eBay found out Big Tree was advertising in their auctions coins that had "COPY" stamped on them, but behind the scenes Big Tree was sending fakes without the word copy. So eBay kicked them off. But that was only after the company had quite a following.

Big Tree had their own website (which I frequented keeping track of what was going on), and had a lot more inventory than the massive amount they showed on eBay. This included complete sets of any US coin you wanted as well as well as fake Dansco albums that held the sets.

Thus any date for any US coin was available. And after awhile Big Tree got into making fakes for just about any foreign coin also.
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#16 Unread post by HammeredCoins »

Very very interesting Earle! Awesome info. I actually found a picture a year or so of a stash of these fake dies that might have been them. Let me go try to find it.
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#17 Unread post by HammeredCoins »

Found it! Here is a link to the article and a few photos I swiped from it. And the overall shape and formation of the pictured fake dies are just like my Buffalo nickel examples.

https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/chinese ... ng-4071202
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#18 Unread post by HammeredCoins »

And to move away from fakes…..in 2003 a 1870 CC reverse die was found that was being used as a doorstop, no joke.

A large coin dealer/company whose name begins with an “L” (as we all collectively groan) bought it for $18,000.

A super cool piece of numismatic history!
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Re: 1916 Buffalo Nickel Die

#19 Unread post by Earle42 »

Yes, Big Tree was very open online about their company making "copies." In China it was not illegal, so they made copies and posted pics of the presses, people working, the machine for adding milling on the edges of their blanks etc.

At one time in the past the owner and I corresponded by email now and then. I thought I may as well learn all I could so I could detect the fakes.
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