Your honest opinion

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Water_and_Dirt

Your honest opinion

#1 Unread post by Water_and_Dirt »

Hello fellas, I would like to know your guys opinio/advice, for this last month and a half I set myself a challenge of finding a coin that could potentially be worth $1000 + , why ? I don't know, maybe because of this pandemic crap that changed our lives drastically, well at least my has somehow, I lost my job a long time ago since I was working in the hotels industry and obviously well you know how the pandemic affected that and to top it off I unfortunately lost my work truck with all my working tools in it , what I'm trying to say is that I've been putting tons of hours on learning everything about coins, either by looking at videos, reading coin forums, joining coin groups, looking at auctions, comparing sales, joining this website, sometimes asking dumb questions here lol , I see some guys here get frustrated a little bit and I totally get it , I would too if I read the same question over and over and over, but I do appreciate every single comment that you guys put to my posts, for all this I have collected some beautiful coins that I believe that have a potential to be on the top grades if I send them to get graded , I've been looking carefully at the top grades on PCGS website and I truly believe that i can have a couple of coins that can reach a ms68+ 69+ and finally I can call this challenge a ( ✔ )... would like to know a second opinion, thanks in advance , signing out!!

Chris G.
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Re: Your honest opinion

#2 Unread post by Funky Strike »

Tough to tell from these pictures - I think they like if you post one coin at a time - this way they can give a better opinion of what you have

I hope there are some good ones in there! Good Luck!

Michael - The Funkmeister

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Re: Your honest opinion

#3 Unread post by Triple C »

Hi Chris...Coins look good! I see many red and red brown.
IMHO, I would not slab any of the coins and I would organize them by date in an ascending or descending order to better find as the collection grows. Again this is JMHO, and you should do what makes sense for you.
Best of luck on that challenge!!!

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Re: Your honest opinion

#4 Unread post by Earle42 »

I REALLY hope there are some good one in there.

But the chances are not all that good.

From my own personal experience, I roll hunted halves (at least 2 and many times 4 boxes) a week for a period of a couple years. I was looking not only for the best MS specimens, but also for all the varieties. I found all the major DDOs, DDRs, etc. But out of all those coins, I do not believe there is one I found that I would gamble to send in to try to make a high enough grade to be fetch 1000.00 (or a lot less!). In fact I don't think there was anything in there worth getting slabbed at all.

I have a beautiful set of MS Kennedy halves from all that searching, and I found a couple couple MS errors. But nothing that would bring in a fortune form being that high of an MS state.

Over the years I have heard its a pretty good rule of thumb (coincommunityforum.com) that you will not find anything over MS63 in circulation. There will be exceptions, maybe, but circulation takes its toll quickly that prohibit profitable high end MS coins from staying that way.

Another thing - it will take a minute to read, but this is the reality of slabbing...Slabbing for money is a gamble with no certain outcomes:

Copy pasted from before:

"
Thinking of Slabbing? Make sure you understand the Facts...or You Could Lose Money.
1. The grading companies are not a way that the majority of people, even those with a great deal of experience who know what they are doing, are going to be able to use in order to make huge personal profits. Many people start using grading companies thinking they will find a way to finance their hobby, but they learn a hard lesson quickly.

2. Watch some of Daniel's videos where he gets pieces back form the grading companies. Note even people who live, eat, breath, and deal coins for a living (like Daniel) can accurately predict what grade the companies will give. And...the "fault" (not really a fault) is in a widespread mistaken perception people get from being exposed to all the slabs being sold nowadays.

Coin grading companies are a business out to make a profit - this is why they exist. They use a system where (allegedly, but in reality its normally two) three graders look at each coin and give an opinion. The company videos showing the process make you believe this is a relaxed paced process of studying each coin. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded as (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: No scientific/verifiable standards or methods are used. Personally having talked with former graders (granted - its been awhile), the process is very rushed since they told me graders are paid by how many coins they can get through in a day.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
Grading the Coin Graders

Here is another good read from someone there at the start of the grading companies:
Hobby negative impacts from slabbing companies

Also link to and read (download if you want it) the pdf link in my signature. The verifiable data presented shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed coins that are not what the companies claims/slabbed the coins to be.

You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legit way without losing money in the process.

And…if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!"

Note after I posted this, Daniel made a video form the content. Sorry I do not have the link.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: Your honest opinion

#5 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

correct me if I am wrong, Earlie, but are the 1972 D no FG half dollars(when correctly attributed, I have read your article on the subject) worth hundreds in just about any grade if they get the designation

as for your rule of thumb regarding MS63, it is completely understandable with most things, but, with some coins(west point quarters and some of the state quarter varieties), you can still(imo) find far better examples in circulation

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Re: Your honest opinion

#6 Unread post by Earle42 »

monsterbug1 wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:28 pm correct me if I am wrong, Earlie, but are the 1972 D no FG half dollars(when correctly attributed, I have read your article on the subject) worth hundreds in just about any grade if they get the designation
If I am not mistaken the ones in the article sold for so much b/c they are high end examples - of which very few are know. I do not know for certain what the top graded ones are for each date, but typically if they hit that high of a price, it is because they are some of the best known. I know PCGS has a population report for each coin in each grade that can be checked.

Also...remember that these coins are the exceptional ones posted out of the ENTIRE hobby of people collecting/searching for them. It is even possible maybe some of the high ends ones were in mint sets or original bank rolls (but again that MS63 concept applies here b/c coins for circulation just plop down into a bin and hit/mark up each other at the mint after exiting the press).

Then there are some of the alleged (note that word please) "unwritten rules" that seem to apply to each coin series such as the one that avid Ike Dollars swear has to be a reality: No slabbing company will ever assign an MS 70 to an Ike (proofs yes pF 70). Unless it been in the last couple of years since I was looking into this, Its never happened (The Ike Group online).
as for your rule of thumb regarding MS63, it is completely understandable with most things, but, with some coins(west point quarters and some of the state quarter varieties), you can still(imo) find far better examples in circulation
The West Point quarter also have to obey the laws of physics when made :)
As they come out of the press, the coins literally fall on top of the others that have been made.

These being a special case made to boost interest, I would not doubt the slabbing companies have made exceptions on these also and graded some at MS 70 (have they, I don't know) b/c them being a special issue and to drum up interest to get more people sending them in (more profits).

i was first introduced to the reality of the businesses these companies are by a former grader. He told me not to take his word for it, but to start looking at all the slabbed MS 70 American Silver Eagles I could to see how obvious flaws are often on the coins.

Long story short, he was convinced, and I am also, that when a dealer sends in a monster box for grading, they skim 20% off of the top, thrown them in MS70 slabs, and the rest are lower.

It keeps the ASE MS70 market going, keeps people gambling to send their in for a hopeful MS 70, and the business profits.

As I have said before, not even someone like Daniel who lives, eats, & breathes coins can consistently make money form slabbing b/c it is a gamble, there is nothing scientific about it, the companies are not able to be held accountable (the famous PCGS guarantee makes a guarantee THEY come out ahead - read it carefully and with an intent to comprehend each thing said!), and they are just a business making money.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: Your honest opinion

#7 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/197 ... 901/147888

From what I am reading/can tell, the 1972 D No FG specifically is worth 200+ in any grade where it is reliably identifiable. Please correct me if I am wrong on this, but, as long as you know you will get the designation, this specific coin type seems to always be worth submitting

I understand what you are saying with the MS63 rule, and I agree with it. I am just saying that no wide sweeping, general way of doing things is perfect. there are always edge cases

BTW, only 3 ATB quarters have ever graded PCGS MS 69, and none have graded MS 70

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Re: Your honest opinion

#8 Unread post by Earle42 »

monsterbug1 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:52 am https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/197 ... 901/147888

From what I am reading/can tell, the 1972 D No FG specifically is worth 200+ in any grade where it is reliably identifiable. Please correct me if I am wrong on this, but, as long as you know you will get the designation, this specific coin type seems to always be worth submitting

I understand what you are saying with the MS63 rule, and I agree with it. I am just saying that no wide sweeping, general way of doing things is perfect. there are always edge cases

BTW, only 3 ATB quarters have ever graded PCGS MS 69, and none have graded MS 70
Wow! I was not aware the price people now pay for these incorrectly labeled halves! The companies and sellers have quite racket going! Very, very sad.

Here is a direct example of how faith in those companies has taken a lot of people for a ride. Check out the ones on eBay and the pics at PCGS. You will see the ones on ebay raw selling for 10.00 and less that are the same as the slabbed ones labeled as being No FG.

Take the links in my paper - see the sham this is. 😡😡😡

I see where new pics have been posted since I made the paper...and they are no better. Look at this one valued by PCGS at 360:
No FG with obvious FG remnants

You can see the F and G in the above pic or zoom in:
Click to enlarge
Click to enlarge
NoFG_with_FG_.jpg (93.36 KiB) Viewed 1785 times

I have several of these I found roll searching. By the looks of things if I slabbed all of mine, a couple being nice, I could make a couple grand.

...but I have to live with myself...

Look at eBay sold:
Sold eBay 1972-D halves

Compare these with some of the ones I linked in my paper as well as some of the ones currently at the link monsterbug posted.

The PCGS newer phots show the tops of the F and G up against the eagle's leg where the polishing could not reach in close enough to erase the letters completely.

This is not, as the PCGS claim says, that there has to be no trace of the FG present for them to slap a No FG on the label.
Please correct me if I am wrong on this, but, as long as you know you will get the designation, this specific coin type seems to always be worth submitting
It looks like what you say about these will make people profits. But paying the slabbing companies to ignorantly (?) put a false ID label on the slab so some collector can be taken for an expensive ride is, at least to me, akin to selling fake coins as the real deal.

Its also very sad so many people can be suckered into spending that kind of money just b/c the company continues to pump out illegitimate slabs.😡
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: Your honest opinion

#9 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

From what I can tell/ have heard, with this specific variety at least, the FG does not need to be perfectly gone to actually get the designation, just mostly gone. Currently, people only place value in such coins if they get the designation of "no fg", regardless of the actual state of the coin

This type of error is very imprecise, and I think that it should be broken up into multiple stages, each with a certain percentage of the "FG" left. Thus, it is far easier to attribute the coin as opposed to the current "is the variety/isn't" type of logic

I have one of these coins myself, and I may consider slabbing at some point, but I also may not

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Re: Your honest opinion

#10 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

please also note that almost all, if not all of the ones that are both slabbed by PCGS and given the true-view imaging have at least some remenants of the FG. On some they are miniscule, and on others they are obvious. It seems that PCGS is counting "very weak FG" as "NO FG"

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Re: Your honest opinion

#11 Unread post by Earle42 »

From what I can tell/ have heard, with this specific variety at least, the FG does not need to be perfectly gone to actually get the designation, just mostly gone.
Here, from the PCGS website and my in depth analysis (in my signature) concerning what I call (and am agreeing even more now) the No FG Farce is what PCGS claims they use to qualify a half dollar as a NO FG:

PCGS: accessed 9/3920
https://www.pcgs.com/news/what-are-no-f ... lars-worth
“ If the FG initials can’t be found under 5x magnification, then the coin is a No FG variety. However, there must be no trace of the FG initials – light indications of the lettering do not count as a No FG variety, and numismatists don’t presently recognize “Weak FG” as a variety.” {emphasis added}.

Note the distinct 2 parts to this:
1. If the initials cannot be found under 5X magnification, then the coin qualifies as a No FG.

Then PCGS specifically adds:

2. Light indications of the FG do not count and neither do weak initials.

That last statement, IMO, is an explicit clarification and emphasis that nothing will labeled as NO FG if any traces cab be seen.

Look again at my essay on this and see how that FG remnants of the letter tops can be seen on the bottom of the eagle's leg where the polishing could not get to it in such a tight space. Aren't those bumps "light indications of the lettering?"

Well...I guess not if profits are involved.😡

BTW - it might be interesting to note the person who first reported a No FG 1972-D half dollar was former PCGS president Ron Guth. I do suppose this could have been totally innocent, but the farce as it sits has obviously been taken advantage of (This info is on the PCGS website concerning the 1972-D no FG half.).


Currently, people only place value in such coins if they get the designation of "no fg", regardless of the actual state of the coin
Which again goes to prove the point that these companies have harmed the coin hobby in many ways.
1. PCGS attributes coins, ignoring their own guidelines, will label coins to add a lot of perceived value to them for profits (more people will want to have theirs slabbed).

2. Human nature "needs" an expert opinion and so these companies take advantage of that by:
a. either PCGS knows they are capable of making something worth face value = 200.00 on the market and do so for profits, or
b. PCGS really is, overall, this ignorant instead of the experts they claim to be. Which is no better than option "a." above b/c the end result is the same:
Fellow collectors have been suckered and ripped off $thousand$ b/c of a farce propagated by a grading company.

Stating it more in depth...
The product of these companies, in this case (and who knows what others) have now become more important in value than the coins themselves! This should make any person who really values the coins angry.

The coin hobby in this area is in the Beanie Baby zone. Its not about the actual coin's value, the coin is assign the high value b/c someone, somewhere claiming themselves to be THE experts say the coin is worth that much despite it being identical to scads of others that go for face value.

Its like putting 1909 S cents into slabs, the company labels them as 1909S VDBs, and on the word of the label, people buy them for the SVDB prices.

Yes...the scenario is about a mint mark and the No FG is about die polishing, but the concept is no less valid.

😡😡😡
This type of error is very imprecise, and I think that it should be broken up into multiple stages, each with a certain percentage of the "FG" left. Thus, it is far easier to attribute the coin as opposed to the current "is the variety/isn't" type of logic
Which is why the PCGS has the above quoted statement they claim, "... There must be no trace of the FG initials – light indications of the lettering do not count as a No FG variety, and numismatists don’t presently recognize “Weak FG” as a variety.

Too bad PCGS expertise is either not what its said to be about coins (or are they simply dishonest?) enough to stick to their alleged standards over this attribution.

I wish there was a way to legally deal with this. Its a very sad, and its a large scar on our hobby.

The last I looked, years ago now, the No FG halves (and before I knew there were so many mislabeled) were about 50.00. I cannot believe the false market has climbed so high for labeled ones.

Years ago when these self proclaimed experts came onto the scene, some of knew this scenario could be the end result.

I think I'll go buy a pet rock now.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

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Re: Your honest opinion

#12 Unread post by DSCoins »

Earl I agree with on the concept of a NO FG coin with you. The trouble that I see is in the very nature of what they started with the 1969 D no FG cent and the 1972 D No FG Half. When they added the No FG to those two coins they backed them self in to a corner. If those two were recognized then all others had to be. I am not saying it is right but they did it to them self.
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Re: Your honest opinion

#13 Unread post by Earle42 »

DSCoins wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:16 am Earl I agree with on the concept of a NO FG coin with you. The trouble that I see is in the very nature of what they started with the 1969 D no FG cent and the 1972 D No FG Half. When they added the No FG to those two coins they backed them self in to a corner. If those two were recognized then all others had to be. I am not saying it is right but they did it to them self.
Actually the companies didn't hurt themselves at all. My next statement is ONLY OPINION, but the more I study these grading companies, the more I find it easy to believe things like this happen on purpose for profit. The sheer number of people paying for the companies to slab the No FG varieties has to bring in a lot of money for the companies.

Other company examples:
1. Making different colored/pictorial labels for the same coin to sell/slab more.
2. The "First Strike" label (this is a farce) that sells coins for a higher price that are no different than others of their type and no way to tell if they were actual "first strikes."
3. Offering to label no mint mark ASEs as being made at San Fran or West Point despite no mark form the mints indicating where the coin was made. Yes - there are ways form the monster boxes to tell, but so what? Create a market and people will come.
4. A large dealer I know did a study over some years and found the monster boxes of ASEs his dealer friends/associates sent in kept all coming back with a consistent 20% MS 70 slabs. He was convinced they just scoop 20% off the top, put them in MS70 slabs, and the rest are lesser graded into their own slabs.

He showed me an MS70 slabbed PCGS with a rim ding and told me to go looking for more to see for myself. It was not hard to find more.

The more I know, the more I a disappointed by these companies and how they deal with collectors.
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

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Re: Your honest opinion

#14 Unread post by Water_and_Dirt »

Earle42 wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:19 pm
From what I can tell/ have heard, with this specific variety at least, the FG does not need to be perfectly gone to actually get the designation, just mostly gone.
Here, from the PCGS website and my in depth analysis (in my signature) concerning what I call (and am agreeing even more now) the No FG Farce is what PCGS claims they use to qualify a half dollar as a NO FG:

PCGS: accessed 9/3920
https://www.pcgs.com/news/what-are-no-f ... lars-worth
“ If the FG initials can’t be found under 5x magnification, then the coin is a No FG variety. However, there must be no trace of the FG initials – light indications of the lettering do not count as a No FG variety, and numismatists don’t presently recognize “Weak FG” as a variety.” {emphasis added}.

Note the distinct 2 parts to this:
1. If the initials cannot be found under 5X magnification, then the coin qualifies as a No FG.

Then PCGS specifically adds:

2. Light indications of the FG do not count and neither do weak initials.

That last statement, IMO, is an explicit clarification and emphasis that nothing will labeled as NO FG if any traces cab be seen.

Look again at my essay on this and see how that FG remnants of the letter tops can be seen on the bottom of the eagle's leg where the polishing could not get to it in such a tight space. Aren't those bumps "light indications of the lettering?"

Well...I guess not if profits are involved.😡

BTW - it might be interesting to note the person who first reported a No FG 1972-D half dollar was former PCGS president Ron Guth. I do suppose this could have been totally innocent, but the farce as it sits has obviously been taken advantage of (This info is on the PCGS website concerning the 1972-D no FG half.).


Currently, people only place value in such coins if they get the designation of "no fg", regardless of the actual state of the coin
Which again goes to prove the point that these companies have harmed the coin hobby in many ways.
1. PCGS attributes coins, ignoring their own guidelines, will label coins to add a lot of perceived value to them for profits (more people will want to have theirs slabbed).

2. Human nature "needs" an expert opinion and so these companies take advantage of that by:
a. either PCGS knows they are capable of making something worth face value = 200.00 on the market and do so for profits, or
b. PCGS really is, overall, this ignorant instead of the experts they claim to be. Which is no better than option "a." above b/c the end result is the same:
Fellow collectors have been suckered and ripped off $thousand$ b/c of a farce propagated by a grading company.

Stating it more in depth...
The product of these companies, in this case (and who knows what others) have now become more important in value than the coins themselves! This should make any person who really values the coins angry.

The coin hobby in this area is in the Beanie Baby zone. Its not about the actual coin's value, the coin is assign the high value b/c someone, somewhere claiming themselves to be THE experts say the coin is worth that much despite it being identical to scads of others that go for face value.

Its like putting 1909 S cents into slabs, the company labels them as 1909S VDBs, and on the word of the label, people buy them for the SVDB prices.

Yes...the scenario is about a mint mark and the No FG is about die polishing, but the concept is no less valid.

😡😡😡
This type of error is very imprecise, and I think that it should be broken up into multiple stages, each with a certain percentage of the "FG" left. Thus, it is far easier to attribute the coin as opposed to the current "is the variety/isn't" type of logic
Which is why the PCGS has the above quoted statement they claim, "... There must be no trace of the FG initials – light indications of the lettering do not count as a No FG variety, and numismatists don’t presently recognize “Weak FG” as a variety.

Too bad PCGS expertise is either not what its said to be about coins (or are they simply dishonest?) enough to stick to their alleged standards over this attribution.

I wish there was a way to legally deal with this. Its a very sad, and its a large scar on our hobby.

The last I looked, years ago now, the No FG halves (and before I knew there were so many mislabeled) were about 50.00. I cannot believe the false market has climbed so high for labeled ones.

Years ago when these self proclaimed experts came onto the scene, some of knew this scenario could be the end result.

I think I'll go buy a pet rock now.
Is this the coin you guys talking about? This is a 1979 D
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Re: Your honest opinion

#15 Unread post by DSCoins »

No the photo you are showing is not a No FG as you can still see the outline of the FG. The two we mentioned was the 1969 D cent and the 1972 D Kennedy Half. Remember you can not see any sign at all of the FG or FS. Be careful because you may not see it with a Microscope but will see it using a loop.
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2000-P .05C Strong Clashed Die O/R PCGS # 14129072 photo at maddieclashes
1983-P DDR FS-01-1983-501
5 2000 WAM FS- 901

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Earle42
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Re: Your honest opinion

#16 Unread post by Earle42 »

I agree - microscopes deceive! And even loupes can make the FG disappear but its obvious in hand when tilting to the light (I don't know about the cents).
Common grading company shortcomings & resulting co$tly mi$take$ to collectors (using Kennedy No FG halves):
https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

How much squash would a sasquatch squash if a sasquatch would squash squash?

ArcherFawsitt
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Re: Your honest opinion

#17 Unread post by ArcherFawsitt »

it was interesting to read, thanks for the advice)

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