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Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse? [Update: it's been cleaned]

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digispin
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Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse? [Update: it's been cleaned]

#1 Unread post by digispin »

I'm trying to make sense on the condition of this coin. It has a very nicely detailed reverse and a strange obverse. By strange, I mean that nothing corresponded with PCGS PhotoGrade. The talons seem to be the "high-point" of the reverse so that's why I'm guessing in the AU range. Either it's a weak strike obverse (with some wear) or it's something beyond my current knowledge. Any thoughts?
20cObv.jpg
20cRev.jpg
Thanks!
Last edited by digispin on Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse?

#2 Unread post by Daniel »

Because it's been cleaned and that has messed with the details and this company is known for selling raw problem coins and not telling their buyers.

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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse?

#3 Unread post by SensibleSal66 »

What a shame , I it wasn't cleaned it would have been a Nice example of an Obsolete coin .
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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse?

#4 Unread post by Matthudson »

I am not entirely clear on how the process is done, but many coins from this era were smoothed, either by buffing, rubbing excessively with the thumb, or in some cases, even using wax to fill in dings and scratches.
You can often find slabbed coins with a details grade stating "smoothed surfaces", or similar. Often dishonest sellers will try to cover this up by adding artificial toning, which surprisingly often, rinses off under running tap water!

Yes, I agree! This seller is utterly unethical, using enhanced images, images of tilted coins, and just about every other cheap trick in the book. I've despised them for 16 years from the time I first started my capering on eBay.

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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse?

#5 Unread post by digispin »

I'm amazed (I guess not really since they sell lots of raw coins) to hear such strong opinions about this dealer. I've never bought from them, but they send out a daily email with auctions about to end. I find it interesting to checkout out what some of the coins go for. For this coin I considered using the NGC eBay service to get an opinion but changed my mind because I'd rather have a better struck coin.

I've learned a lot from coinHelpU but never heard of "smoothing". I'd be so curious what the coin looked before it was messed with.

@Matthudson - Is there a similar company that you would recommend or be neutral about? I use eBay to track a raw coin's value. Since I only buy raw coins to fill a 7070 album, I buy from an LCS or show.

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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse?

#6 Unread post by Matthudson »

digispin wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:15 pm @Matthudson - Is there a similar company that you would recommend or be neutral about? I use eBay to track a raw coin's value. Since I only buy raw coins to fill a 7070 album, I buy from an LCS or show.
I do best avoiding ALL of them! Ha! It's a tedious process, but I have a note pad with a string of sellers to exclude when searching. I copy and paste that into the "exclude seller" box on the filters - it gives you a bit of a fight (of course it does), but after a couple of tries, it sticks. Then, I select "Seller accepts returns", and then "Location: US only". The career eBayers are online to make profits!! I want someone who is trying to make room, or get a few extra bucks selling something they've had in the family for years. And don't get me started on the expression "Estate Sale"! Totally overused and completely misleading. Someone's grandpa's estate includes a Barber quarter that's had multiple trips down the garbage disposal? Interesting!

When I see a coin I might like, I check to see what else the seller is selling. I got one of my best deals from a woman who sells dolls! Look for sellers that are also liquidating an accumulation of stuff they inherited, or have had a long time. Pawn shops? Can go either way! I love the sellers that do not deal primarily in coins.

The ideal private person seller has feedback that is good, but they don't have scores in the tens of thousands! They don't have an Ebay store. Keep your relationships with buyers in top-notch condition. As a seller, I send a card to my best customers every now an then, because I've kept their address along with a description of what they've bought from me. Often, when I get something new, I don't even bother with eBay after the first transaction. I reach out to them directly.

I have a spread sheet set to tally the winning bid, plus shipping, plus state tax. Yes, eBay charges tax on the shipping too! I also have a section that calculates what I would make after shipping and eBay fees, if I were to sell it again. Rule of thumb? If you can realistically expect a bid of 123% of what you paid (total), you've got a profitable situation. Even if you're just looking to upgrade a collection from time to time. Buy on eBay, sell to private persons or a reputable dealer. The fees are scalding at most online auction venues. Ebay is no exception. But, at least they don't charge a buyer's premium. Yes, others charge both the buyer and the seller a transaction fee!

At Great Collections, the selling fee is only 5%. At eBay, it's 12.55% plus $.30 cents. Great Collections will insist that any coin you send them already be in a PCGS, NGC, or ANACS slab. If not, they will submit it on your behalf and charge you. Coins there are usually a lot nicer, but also more expensive than wholesale with heavy bidding competition. On that note, shop eBay when the competition is lower. Ebay advises sellers to shoot for a window between 7 and 9 pm EST. Naturally, that's when you'll have the most competition. Try late morning, early afternoon. In the middle of the night you'll generally only find swindles. Sellers target buyers with insomnia who shop out of boredom during those hours. Avoid mystery lots and "unsearched" bulk items. If you had five gazillion Mercury dimes to unload, you would still check for key dates before every shipment - don't say you wouldn't! Although, as long as the coins are properly identified and pictured, multiple coin lots can be fun. I try to target one "free" coin that I'll keep and try to sell the remaining coins for the price of what I paid for the lot. I have a separate collection of coins that have paid for themselves in this manner! Absolutely anyone can craft a "shotgun" roll of unsearched wheat pennies. There is usually a "bait coin", something nice visible on the end. Then you unpack them an see that you've wound up with 49 1957-D wheat cents for $29.95. Generally avoid!

If you click on a seller's posted image and it doesn't expand to full screen, or the coin only fills a small part of the visible field, scroll on. I suppose you could message the seller and ask for better pics. But, hey! How invested can someone be in conducting a fair operation, when they can't even post reasonable, well-lit, well-focused images? In 2021? Is the coin shown at an unusual angle, or tilt? To conceal flaws? Then they write: "As is" and "U grade" and "What you see is what you get!"? NO! These are all very bad signs and a big fat RED FLAG!!! You see a seller post a comment like that in the description, scroll on! To many, Ebay is a veritable minefield of opportunity for them to pawn off crap they could never unload in person - at a coin show, for example. "You ain't never gonna sell that dog, Frank! Might as well see what you can get for it on eBay!" Suppose you have accumulated a "junk box" of damaged coins, and someone actually offers to take them off your hands. They in turn pretty them up and sell them on eBay. Pretty much Great Southern's business model. They buy problem coins and pass them on as something desirable -probably going so far as cracking them out of "details" slabs and not mentioning the "details" grade.

I have had great experiences with Arlington Coins and M Barr in particular. MacVanderstein and Great Southern I find extremely shady - avoid.

What do REALLY nice coins look like? Open an account with Heritage Auctions. It's free and you can research past auction archives. You can also build a "My Collection" section for your personal coins. A big benefit there is that you get to peek at what the wholesale and retail values are for each coin you enter into the "My Collection" part. You can even upload your own images of your coins. Both PSGS and NGC price guides are very inflated retail prices for certified coins! Hop on PCGS Coin Facts. Watch every video on Daniel's you tube channel.
Last edited by Matthudson on Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:21 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse? [Update: it's been cleaned]

#7 Unread post by Matthudson »

Oh, and the best way to buy good coins, is to own a few bad coins! You get pickier and pickier as you go! Visit a coin show and look at ALL the coins you can! Invest in a good, high magnification glass!

Second best, actually. Having a knowledgeable mentor is the best. Join a coin club.
Last edited by Matthudson on Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse? [Update: it's been cleaned]

#8 Unread post by Matthudson »

AND... keep in mind that the "LIBERTY" is raised on a twenty-cent, not incuse like the rest of the series. It does not need a full "LIBERTY" to grade fine! Leave your coin out for a few months near an open window. If mine are overly cleaned, they go into a "boo box" of fireplace matches until they start to turn grey. Interesting thing is that cleaned silver coins tend to quickly revert back to their original shade when left exposed to the open air.

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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse? [Update: it's been cleaned]

#9 Unread post by digispin »

Matt, that's for all that great info. I'm looking forward to going to the Baltimore Whitman Expo.

Also I never knew (or read) about the LIBERTY on the shield of the 20c. I just assumed they all had the same design scaled to fit the coin. I'm sure the QDB book on Liberty Seated coinage would explain all that. Since it is such a distinct type coin, I'll hope to buy mine at the coin show and abandon eBay.

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Re: Seated 20c - Weak strike obverse and AU reverse? [Update: it's been cleaned]

#10 Unread post by monsterbug1 »

Matthudson wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:57 am Oh, and the best way to buy good coins, is to own a few bad coins! You get pickier and pickier as you go! Visit a coin show and look at ALL the coins you can! Invest in a good, high magnification glass!

Second best, actually. Having a knowledgeable mentor is the best. Join a coin club.
ebay is no easy game to play. But yes, my best deals have either involved fire damaged coins in bulk(when they are fire damaged, everybody forgets to check for silver, or else does not know its value) or underpriced silver lots(rare but they do exist). But yeah, most of the "unsearched" lots are some degree of bad, unless they come from the rare fair seller who makes sure the lot/roll/bag/etc is reasonable.

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