1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

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1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#1 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:42 pm

1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

I was looking through a mixed roll of 1951 P&D wheats. I noticed the area between the forehead and bangs were different and was hoping someone might shed some light on this for me.

Does anyone know if the 1951 LWC were re-engraved like the front of the lapel on the 1953 proofs? (Not like the Channeling or Trenching on some coins which is incuse, but re-engraved which would be raised in relief.) Of the 14 coins (P&D) only 2 were "normal". The other 12 had the "re-engraving" on them.

Thanks in advance, Cliff

1rst three images are marked up showing the "Re-engraving" between the bangs and forehead that were on 12 of the coins in the roll. (It is raised, not incuse) Most (all?) of the coins also displayed the raised line down Lincoln's nose as well.

Next 3 are Coin1 (1952d) with Normal, unaccented, design at the bangs

Last 3 are Coin2 (1951p) with Normal, unaccented, design at the bangs
Attachments
1951LincolnCentRe-engravedCloseBangsMarkupA_April2019.jpg
1951LincolnCentRe-engravedCloseBangsMarkupC_April2019.jpg
1951LincolnCentRe-engravedCloseBangsMarkupD_April2019.jpg
1951dCoin1DateNormal5April2019.jpg
1951dCoin1NormalCloseBangs2April2019.jpg
1951dCoin1NormalCloseBangs5April2019.jpg
1951pCoin2NormalDate2April2019.JPG
1951pCoin2NormalcloseBangs3April2019.JPG
1951pCoin2NormalcloseBangs12April2019.JPG
Last edited by PetesPockets55 on Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#2 Unread post by Daniel » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:56 pm

I am not sure why it has to go as far as saying re-engraved. It's a die mark and not uncommon on coins, just placement makes it look special. No re-engraved varieties for this year.

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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#3 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:44 pm

But it's raised in relief like the 1953 re-engraved proofs and I haven't been back into collecting long, but I don't remember seeing it like this around the bangs on other years. How else to describe it?

I was just referring to it as "Re-engraved" because that was the term for the 1953 proofs. It is not incuse like the term "channeling" describes.

I wonder if the 1953 proofs garnered extra attention because they are proofs or because they were discovered by Dr. Wiles who is the attributor/author for Variety Vista. His noticing it certainly would be a boost to a varieties acceptance. Then again getting an FS# didn't hurt. happydance:

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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#4 Unread post by Daniel » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:55 am

I just feel it is more proper to call it a die mark. If you think it was struck with a retired proof die then send it to Wiles or Mike Diamond or someone of that ilk. The FS-401 has marks other places as well.

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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#5 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:57 am

Sorry about that. I don't think it is a retired proof die in any way, shape, or form and didn't mean to imply it.
(BTW- So no one reading this thread gets the wrong idea, I'm not trying to create a furor to hype it, I'm just trying to understand.)

Just trying to understand the interest in the re-engraved proofs as a variety, but not business strikes. And what seems even more bizarre, from my small sample, is that most 1951 P&D Lincoln's show these die marks or "re-engraving". It may be harder to find examples with out it. Maybe a subset of collectors out there that collect by subtle design changes over the years already have this anomaly as part of their collection.

I'm probably wrong to think so, but calling these die marks suggest something very random and accidental. This highlighting of the design on the 1951 Lincoln seems as intentional as the re-engraving on the 1939, 1950 and 1953 proof varieties. A different area perhaps and only a business strike, but very intentional.

EDIT: Maybe I should have to refered to it as an "accented design"?

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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#6 Unread post by Paul » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:26 am

Cliff, have you "measured" the size of this itty-bitty mark?
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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#7 Unread post by Daniel » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:08 pm

It could be remnants of a die clash.Re-engraving happened when part of the proof design was accidentally removed or "weakened". So die mark is most appropriate considering.

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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#8 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:51 am

Paul, I have no scope for measuring at this time.
Here's a couple of better images of the enhancement. And on some of the examples it extends down the forehead.

Since it is not scarce according to the quantity I found in my small sample, it seems it was on a working hub or master die. I have since found it on some 1951s coins as well. It's entirely possible it is on all dies but have been abraded away by mint employees doing die maintenance.

Examples on the PCGS webite are hard to tell as the lighting in most of their images puts this area in the shadows.
Attachments
1951LincolnCentRe-engravedCloseBangs1April2019.jpg
1951LincolnCentRe-engravedCloseBangs2April2019.jpg
1951LincolnCentRe-engravedCloseBangs3April2019.jpg

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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#9 Unread post by Daniel » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:14 am

Much better images and looks almost like a die crack here.

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Re: 1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

#10 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:44 am

Yeah with the little bumps along the line. I'm guessing that whatever tool was used "bumped" along instead of a nice even groove.

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