CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

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PetesPockets55
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CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#1 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:03 am

My question is "Clash or Struck over another token/coin?" :confused:

I got this token in a roll from a regular seller of mine.
Obverse- "Redeemed at DL WING & CO., Albany NY
Reverse- "UNION FLOUR"

(Orientation is Coin alignment, not medal.)

For those not familiar with Store Cards or Civil War tokens, there were dozens of Obverses and Reverses that the different manufacturers would combine together to fill an order. So this makes my error attribution dilemma more challenging. Only the more dramatic errors draw much interest.

On the obverse, arcing above and below the D.L. I noticed light, raised design elements that got me thinking this token struck over another token or at the very least, a clash between the hammer and anvil dies. The secondary design doesn't appear to match the reverse of this coin.

I don't know how to do overlays and if anyone here does, feel free to use my images to complete one to see if this might be a result of clashed dies.

I noticed the reverse die had a strike through a thread I thought, under the R of FLOUR. Then I noticed what appears to be an incuse design element (stem w/flower bud) due east of the same R at the rim.

I'm not familiar enough with all the different reverses to tell which design (if it is another token) might be hiding behind the more visible obverse and reverse.
Thanks for looking and any and all comments. Cliff
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_FullObv4_DLWing_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_FullRev4_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_ObvDLWing_LeftHalf2_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_UnionFlourSide_IncuseStemFlower1_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_UnionFlourSide_Flo2_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_UnionFlourSide_IncuseStemFlower1_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_UnionFlourSide_IncuseStemFlower4_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_UnionFlourSide_ObvDLWing_DLCloseup2_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_UnionFlourSide_ObvDLWing_DLCloseup1_July2018.jpg
DoubleStruck_CWToken_StoreCard_UnionFlourSide_ObvDLWing_ING&CO1_July2018.jpg



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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#2 Unread post by Daniel » Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:13 am

It's a die clash with some die fatigue issues and then wear from being handled has worn these features a bit making it more confusing. I like these finds even if they're not rare, just makes the hobby more interesting.

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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#3 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:58 am

Thanks Daniel. That's what I was leaning towards.

The parts that threw me were the incuse elements on the reverse (UNION FLOUR). Not really much in the way of raised items. Most of these types of tokens are known for their lack of quality control and severe over use of the dies.
The semi circle under the R, the "Flower bud" to the right of the same R and then there is another faint area that is visible in the fifth image. It goes from under the upper far right of the F of FLOUR to the left side of the Bow of the wreath at the bottom. I thought this could have been a lamination, but not sure since it goes "under" the tip of the F.
I know these incuse elements could be a lamination, struck through a foreign object(s) or even PSD.

Do you have an assessment of the incuse elements?

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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#4 Unread post by PALH1 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:10 am

C, here is a quick overlay 4 ya ....... hugeeyes
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#5 Unread post by mhonzell » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am

I love these finds as well! As you said, it can be very difficult since the dies are oriented by hand and the owner could have been using any combination of dies on hand when the clash occurred. Some people figure them out.

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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#6 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:39 pm

PALH1 wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:10 am
C, here is a quick overlay 4 ya ....... hugeeyes
Thanks Paul.
I was having trouble mentally [ummm... now where was I ... oh yeh widegrin] visualizing the reverse overlayed onto the obv. I was forgetting to mentally reverse the direction of the stems, visualizing them flowing up. Whereas, in reality, as your overlay shows they flow downward. Just like the token.

I gotta chuckle at myself when I get "enthusiastic" like that. Cliff

ps. My paradolia makes the little incuse "flower bud" on the reverse look like Audrey II from "The Little Shop of Horrors" when she was young and cute. You know, before she got teeth. lol:

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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#7 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:41 pm

mhonzell wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:26 am
I love these finds as well! As you said, it can be very difficult since the dies are oriented by hand and the owner could have been using any combination of dies on hand when the clash occurred. Some people figure them out.
I was hoping I had a really interesting one for you Mark.
I'll keep plugging away.
Cliff

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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#8 Unread post by mhonzell » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:20 am

I don't know if you remember this one, but I found one that had incuse lettering behind the currently raised lettering. You can make out the ampersand clearly and what looks like "ORY" in reverse, but that's not enough to identify it. What is known is that it is not either of the two dies raised on the token.
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#9 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:15 am

The incuse "flower/4 leaf clover" on yours made me think of the "Flowers" on the "It must and shall be preserved" tokens, even though they are definitely not the same. (Link to your thread of the same)

So that means this would have been an incuse design element on the original token?
Most tokens usually have raised (in relief) design elements, don't they?

Hmmmmmm........

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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?

#10 Unread post by mhonzell » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:32 am

I was thinking the incuse was a prior brockage, so they re-used the token.

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