I came across this recently doing some research on FE Mules. (thanks again Paul)
1859 Double headed mule- Heritage Auctions
Here is a link to a forum discussion on it in 2008.
In the course of the Forum discussions on this mint error the following information was included:
(As I was reading the forum posts I noticed the coin had a medal alignment.)
"1859 DOUBLE-HEADED INDIAN HEAD CENT MULE
Notes:
A single example of an 1859 Double-Headed Indian Head Cent is known. Experts believe that additional examples may exist because of the way the coin was struck.
According to Chris Pilliod, a blank die expected to be used as an "anvil" die (the reverse of the coin and the bottom die in a coining press) was accidentally fabricated as an obverse die. A small portion of the side of dies are ground flat, ensuring proper alignment in the coining press. Die-sinkers also use this "key" to properly align the dies for their purposes. Thus, a coin struck using an anvil die engraved with an obverse design would be expected to have a medal alignment, which is indeed the case with this 1859 Double-Headed Cent.
Additional examples may exist because this coin was produced as a normal business strike under normal (albeit exceptional) conditions."
Also in the forum posts:
"The 1859 dual obverse mule is considered to be a Mint error rather than a pattern. Noted Indian cent expert Rick Snow has traced both obverse dies used to make the coin to other business strike coins."
My question- How could this obverse be produced on an anvil die blank and then be used in conjunction with another Reverse (anvil die) to produce other non error business strike examples?
Thanks in advance for any help understanding this possibility.
1859 Double headed Indian Mule
Moderator: Daniel
Forum rules
Here's a link to how to post a topic with images in our community https://coinauctionshelp.com/welcome-to ... community/
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You also agree to follow these guidelines. You must agree to these rules to be a member of this forum. NO SPAM! Spam is deleted within minutes, no spam will ever be left in our community.
1. Post a front and back image of your coin with a specific question about what you’re seeing or asking about and one coin per topic.
2. Please remove coin from the holder unless it’s US or an official mint case or unless it is graded by a grading service.
3. Images should be taken by a camera or cell phone camera, we ask that members don’t use images through a microscope screen.
4. Always start your own topic, please don’t ask about your coin or post your coin in someone else’s coin topic.
5. Do not send private messages about your coin unless an Admin ask you too and the same for sending emails through the board.
6. No spam. Do not post any links to your coin or other non-coin websites.
7. Always be respectful even if something makes you upset or you don’t agree with a member. You can always get a second opinion elsewhere. If you have an issue then politely ask an admin in an PM. PM’s are for issues, technical and personal, but not for coin questions (refer to number 5 on this list). Our community is not a soap box for complaining or drama, so please refrain from doing so here.[/size]
Here's a link to how to post a topic with images in our community https://coinauctionshelp.com/welcome-to ... community/
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You also agree to follow these guidelines. You must agree to these rules to be a member of this forum. NO SPAM! Spam is deleted within minutes, no spam will ever be left in our community.
1. Post a front and back image of your coin with a specific question about what you’re seeing or asking about and one coin per topic.
2. Please remove coin from the holder unless it’s US or an official mint case or unless it is graded by a grading service.
3. Images should be taken by a camera or cell phone camera, we ask that members don’t use images through a microscope screen.
4. Always start your own topic, please don’t ask about your coin or post your coin in someone else’s coin topic.
5. Do not send private messages about your coin unless an Admin ask you too and the same for sending emails through the board.
6. No spam. Do not post any links to your coin or other non-coin websites.
7. Always be respectful even if something makes you upset or you don’t agree with a member. You can always get a second opinion elsewhere. If you have an issue then politely ask an admin in an PM. PM’s are for issues, technical and personal, but not for coin questions (refer to number 5 on this list). Our community is not a soap box for complaining or drama, so please refrain from doing so here.[/size]
-
- Forum Supporter
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:08 pm
- Has thanked: 236 times
- Been thanked: 36 times
- Paul
- Master Die Variety Examiner
- Posts: 19097
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:19 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
- Has thanked: 906 times
- Been thanked: 3323 times
Re: 1859 Double headed Indian Mule
C,....
i be 'COINFUSED' on your question ...... :confused:
can you 're-phrase' please ?
whistling2:
i be 'COINFUSED' on your question ...... :confused:
can you 're-phrase' please ?
whistling2:
-
- Forum Supporter
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:08 pm
- Has thanked: 236 times
- Been thanked: 36 times
Re: 1859 Double headed Indian Mule
Let me see....
Rick Snow said that both obverses were used to produce regular business strike coins.
If one obverse was produced using a reverse (anvil) die blank, which can only be used/"mated" to the anvil position, how could it then fit/be used in the obverse (hammer) position?
Rick Snow said that both obverses were used to produce regular business strike coins.
If one obverse was produced using a reverse (anvil) die blank, which can only be used/"mated" to the anvil position, how could it then fit/be used in the obverse (hammer) position?
- Paul
- Master Die Variety Examiner
- Posts: 19097
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 9:19 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
- Has thanked: 906 times
- Been thanked: 3323 times
Re: 1859 Double headed Indian Mule
ok,.....i think i got ya.
i went back & "re-read the article"......
:eureka:
so,.....here is my take:
as you know,....there were alot of screw-ups at this time minting these new(er) 'small cents'
.....(just look at all the FEC multi-denom clashes)....
so,... if the '59 IHC 'obverses' were hit in the 'anvil' position, i can hugeeyes how easy it would be for a press operator to 'accidentally install' (early/mid-run replace?) an IHC 'obverse' in the 'hammer' position,... NOT THE PROPER reverse, & bada-bing, a great 2 headed mule IHC ....JMO
i went back & "re-read the article"......
:eureka:
so,.....here is my take:
as you know,....there were alot of screw-ups at this time minting these new(er) 'small cents'
.....(just look at all the FEC multi-denom clashes)....
so,... if the '59 IHC 'obverses' were hit in the 'anvil' position, i can hugeeyes how easy it would be for a press operator to 'accidentally install' (early/mid-run replace?) an IHC 'obverse' in the 'hammer' position,... NOT THE PROPER reverse, & bada-bing, a great 2 headed mule IHC ....JMO
-
- Forum Supporter
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:08 pm
- Has thanked: 236 times
- Been thanked: 36 times
Re: 1859 Double headed Indian Mule
Thanks and I can understand that "newbie" mistake as well.
But how would that obverse (that was made on and could only fit the anvil position) then be used in the hammer position to make business strike coins?
(The only thing I can think of is the anvil die could be modified somehow to work in the hammer position)
But how would that obverse (that was made on and could only fit the anvil position) then be used in the hammer position to make business strike coins?
(The only thing I can think of is the anvil die could be modified somehow to work in the hammer position)
- Daniel
- Administrator
- Posts: 26520
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:59 pm
- Location: Ohio
- Has thanked: 1148 times
- Been thanked: 4160 times
- Contact:
Re: 1859 Double headed Indian Mule
The anvil die was only slight modified, on the edge only, but could have been reinstalled as a hammer die since fitting is only and issue when creating the coin chamber in conjunction with the anvil die and the collar die.
So they only slightly modified the edges of the die, fabricated as they say, but still near the same as a hammer die. So when this formerly anvil die was then used as a hammer die you can see the edge is a bit different on subsequent coins it struck. The reason Snow was able to trace other coins from this die.
It's just a matter of the modified edges being aligned to fit against the collar die so the planchet is struck properly.
So they only slightly modified the edges of the die, fabricated as they say, but still near the same as a hammer die. So when this formerly anvil die was then used as a hammer die you can see the edge is a bit different on subsequent coins it struck. The reason Snow was able to trace other coins from this die.
It's just a matter of the modified edges being aligned to fit against the collar die so the planchet is struck properly.
-
- Forum Supporter
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:08 pm
- Has thanked: 236 times
- Been thanked: 36 times
Re: 1859 Double headed Indian Mule
Ah. OK and thanks Daniel. Sometimes it takes a while for info to sink in. lol:Daniel wrote: ↑Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:49 am The anvil die was only slight modified, on the edge only, but could have been reinstalled as a hammer die since fitting is only and issue when creating the coin chamber in conjunction with the anvil die and the collar die.
So they only slightly modified the edges of the die, fabricated as they say, but still near the same as a hammer die. So when this formerly anvil die was then used as a hammer die you can see the edge is a bit different on subsequent coins it struck. The reason Snow was able to trace other coins from this die.
It's just a matter of the modified edges being aligned to fit against the collar die so the planchet is struck properly.
-
- Similar Topics
- Replies
- Views
- Last post
-
- 8 Replies
- 1958 Views
-
Last post by amnight
-
- 2 Replies
- 1307 Views
-
Last post by Daniel
-
- 7 Replies
- 4059 Views
-
Last post by jesjon
-
- 20 Replies
- 1233 Views
-
Last post by Matthudson
-
- 5 Replies
- 1898 Views
-
Last post by Daniel
-
- 5 Replies
- 824 Views
-
Last post by Daniel
-
- 6 Replies
- 77 Views
-
Last post by Earle42
-
- 4 Replies
- 2236 Views
-
Last post by Daniel
-
- 3 Replies
- 499 Views
-
Last post by Daniel
-
- 12 Replies
- 2173 Views
-
Last post by PetesPockets55