Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

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Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#1 Unread post by xapatrick »

I got this on an online auction last year. It appears to be a typical post-mint alteration on the obverse, EXCEPT for two interesting thing 1) There is absolutely NO trace of the old coin features in the flattened areas (even a penny smashed on a train track will still show its features) and the patina of the flattened area appears to match exactly that for the un-altered areas of the coin. Ok, so going to the reverse, one would expect to find raised or flattened areas, with distorted features like on the letters of "ONE" and the tops of the wheat ears. But they are perfect in dimension. The extreme top of thee reverse, instead of flat or raised, is actually slightly recessed, and the top is slightly out-of-round in shape. If you notice, on the obverse, the bottom shows the tops of letters spelling "AMERICA". My knee-jerk reaction is it just couldn't have happened at the mint, but the lack of damage/distortion on the reverse along with the lack of flattened features and overall even patina makes me wonder how it could NOT have been produced at the mint. Any thoughts are appreciated.
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#2 Unread post by Paul »

Welcome

2 obverse images posted,....... can you retry posting the reverse image please?
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#3 Unread post by xapatrick »

Sorry it's not the best clarity, but I think you can see that the features are intact, and there are no raised/flattened areas, only a slight elongation.
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#4 Unread post by xapatrick »

Ok last pic. Thanks for any thoughts.
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#5 Unread post by Paul »

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....
Interesting, I've never seen anything like this before.

I don't believe this could be a mint processing error, as the actual "Size" of the coin (diameter) is larger than the collar die.

What's really weird here..... Is the very tip top portion of the word "AMERICA" shows on the lower obverse flattened area.... Strange.
When you look closely you will see the tops of the letters do not form a perfect arch either.

Does anyone else have any ideas here?
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#6 Unread post by kcm »

I messed up and double-posted. My post follows. I don't know how to get rid of my erroneous copy, so I edited into a confession of idiocy.
Last edited by kcm on Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#7 Unread post by kcm »

I'm vexed because the obverse impression seems to fill about 80% of the field. The reverse impression, 98% of its field. Were the dies used to make the impressions similar in size? I doubt it. My guess (no basis for it): early draft of an end-of war medallion by a grateful to be free AND ALIVE European sculptor, copper courtesy of a shell casing.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#8 Unread post by xapatrick »

Paul and kcm, thank you for your input. As for the "AMERICA" letters (tops of) on the obv flattened area, if you look to the left of the first "A" and just left of where the light has flooded the image a bit, you can just notice a thin raised strip along the edge that is likely the top of an "F", as in "OF AMERICA".

kcm, I too thought about someone sculpting the flattened area, but there is absolutely no indication of tooling or grinding or polishing. In fact the surface of the flat area appears to have natural toning and even traces of mint luster, as do the other surfaces. Further, just below the bust where it indents to the flattened area, I can see with a loupe that there are tiny flow lines as if this was struck, not sculpted. The same is true on the reverse, just above the letters "E PLURIBUS UNUM" there are tiny flow lines out to the rim. And the fact that the "E PLURIBUS UNUM" is recessed, exactly opposite where the obv "AMERICA" would have pulled extra metal from the planchet (just like areas of coins that are opposite broken dies are often weak or recessed) makes me believe this was struck. Also, like you I thought about all that was going on in the 1940's- with the changes of composition, at least one cent pattern, medals and minting of coins for foreign nations, maybe a bored mint employee decided to have fun and insert a partial metal fragment into a cent die?

This is my first coin post, and I can at least take comfort that experienced collectors like yourselves are as vexed as I am. I was afraid I might be embarrassed by some simple explanation I overlooked.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#9 Unread post by Paul »

...... I see the top of the "F", now that you mention it....
I'm still lost here...... I guess I would need to see it firsthand....
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#10 Unread post by kcm »

I did not mean to speculate that your coin was the direct product of a sculptor. My "far-fetched" speculation is that your coin is the product of two unmatched, poorly sculpted dies. Mine was a response to Paul's "Does anyone else have any ideas here?" Thank you for this fun mystery.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#11 Unread post by Earle42 »

Wow - that one is strange. Might be worth contacting Mike Diamond. I also asked one of the top error specialists on another forum to come here to look also (Coop). I have not seen him stumped much since 2011 when I joined there :)
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#12 Unread post by xapatrick »

kcm- ok now I see what you were saying. And right now, it's the leading theory! lol.

Earle42- Thanks for inviting a top specialist to have a look! I'll be anxious to hear what he says.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#13 Unread post by Earle42 »

Sometimes Coop takes awhile, I have this thread alerting my email for new posts. He also has hundreds of pics he makes available for people describing errors etc. Mike Diamond is also on that forum and if Coop cannot tell, Mike is the noted expert in the numismatic hobby for errors. The TPGs, magazines, etc. respect and value his opinions.
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#14 Unread post by Daniel »

Post mint creation, someone altered this coin and what looks like "AMERICA" has been carved but really doesn't look like the letters in AMERICA, they're the wrong size and shape. So I will stick with post mint damage until somewhere higher than my pay grade proclaims it a new mint error. Of which I do not believe will happen.

The thing is similar or same toning doesn't mean it happened at the mint, if it happens early enough in the coin's life. I've see graffiti and scratches with the same patina as the rest of the coin.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#15 Unread post by xapatrick »

Daniel, thank you for your input. The last thing I would want to do is be a brand new member here, and then disagree with you on your opinion. Your conclusion that it is post mint damage could well be true, but I am convinced that the obv flattened area, including the letters of AMERICA, were struck onto this coin. All the fields of the flattened area are smooth with wear consistent with a coin of that age, including around and between the AMERICA letters, but absolutely no suspect tooling or grinding marks, and the edges of the letters (though you're right they are imperfect and not a font of a US coin I'm aware of) are very sharp. If carved, why the slight distortion of the top of the reverse? How could they have recessed the areas of the the letters E PLURIBUS UNUM? In fact, if there is any distortion to the reverse, it is that E PLURIBUS UNUM may be slightly elongated, as is the coin. I think this more consistent with a strike. But if struck, how were the wheat ears and ONE kept perfect?

I know I have the advantage of having the coin in hand. But I am very willing to send it to whoever among you (Paul?) or other experts to examine it. I've watched many of your videos, Daniel, and they are excellent, so I'm pretty sure this may be the only time I disagree with you!

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#16 Unread post by Paul »

I'd be happy to look at it for you.....
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Can you look into this for me Daniel, I'm not able to send personal messages to
anyone anyhow.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#17 Unread post by xapatrick »

Great, thx Paul! I couldn't find how to message in this system, so I sent my ph # to your CONECA email.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#18 Unread post by Paul »

Here are my images......
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#19 Unread post by xapatrick »

Great pics, Paul. Thanks!

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#20 Unread post by scatrat »

Hello all, I'm wondering if anyone is familiar with a 1940 Jefferson Nickel? I found one and its not in completely bad shape. Some of the devise can still be seen and it weighs 4.64 grams. Were there any experimental coins created?

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#21 Unread post by Paul »

Here's my submit results
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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#22 Unread post by Coin Mule »

Hi Paul, here is a great opportunity for me to learn something. I see your results, but I don't understand the title 'Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)". Since I am new, is this coin shorthand or slang. I see they called the 1942 D an "ex lucky piece holder", and that part I understand, but, well anyway, TIA if you respond.

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Re: Strange 194x-D 1c (mint error?)

#23 Unread post by Paul »

Doug,
I am as confused as you are… I need to wait to see the actual printing on the paper in the slab
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