newbie

[james.bannister]

Hi, I'm James a UK collector or American coins. For a number of years I used PCGS for grading. However I found myself buying mostly NGC for the past 10 years or so which makes most of my current collection NGC. So I am thinking of doing some crossovers! Will NGC honour the grades. If a coin is graded by PCGS or (NGC) will the crossover be accepted as it was first graded? Also would a coin ever be questioned assuming it had never left the slab. I mean do these companys ever degrade a graded coin?

thanks :)

[Daniel]

Welcome to the forum.

You pose a good question but these two companies are competitors and might not see each other's grades as valid. You're always taking a chance when you submit to a company for grading and I would think that chance is worse if you sent a coin in a competitor's holder. I am saying there's dishonesty but there would be a bias. It's just human nature.

A PCGS employee is going to look at the NGC slab as inferior to there product, and visa versa. It's that way with any company.

[mhonzell]

Welcome!

Great question!
I've sent coins from one of the top three to the others and get mixed results. NGC will typically accept PCGS' grading. PCGS sometimes accepts NGC's grades. ANACS has never accepted NGC or PCGS grades on items I've sent in. Like Daniel said they are in competition and each trying to state they have the better standard.

The reality is:
They all frequently over-grade coins. Most likely to either get more customers, or to keep customers loyal. It is not dramatic over-grading. But, when that same coin is sent to someone else, it becomes easy to state that the other guy messed up.

With ANACS, you can tell them the minimum grade you'll accept for a crossover. They will look at it through the slab and if it doesn't meet your goal, then they will not break it out of it's current holder. They will still charge you, as they did look at it. I am not sure if PCGS follows this pattern.

NGC recently adopted a policy that any coin being considered will be looked at out of the holder... period. Yep, they break it out before they grade it. That means that no matter who slabbed it previously, it is being graded as a raw coin and any prior judgments are forever lost. If PCGS (or whomever) over-graded it, or in the opinion of NGC, missed the point that the coin was cleaned, damaged, bent, etc, then your coin is now professionally body-bagged in a slab.


The point:
Collect the coin, not the holder.
It's slabbed to protect the coin.
The information on the slab is meaningless if it is not a true depiction of the coin.


Interesting article by Rick Snow: Grading Coins

[james.bannister]

thanks guys :) another grading question: if i have a coin graded by either PCGS or NGC eg. and I consider it may be better (up) graded would they ever down grade as opposed to upgrade. I mean for example - as stated - NGC remove all coins from slabs for regarding, so could they (they being a different set of graders) say 'oh, I think this coin, although graded by my colleagues here, is over graded so I will down grade to what I think? :)

[mhonzell]

The short answer is: Yes.

We all have days where we have an attitude or distractions.
Should they? No, unless it was originally over-graded.

And, remember, the customer is always right. Not the owner.
Your opinion that it should/could grade higher is just that, an opinion. What will someone who wants to buy it think of the coin?
Many have sent the same coin in repeatedly to get a better grade. Sometimes, it works. This can be a costly endeavor.

But, as I was trying to point out with Rick Snow's article, for higher priced coins, the customer is going to pay based on the coin, not the slab. In that article, Rick Snow shows a photo of six 1877 Indian Head Cents all bearing the same slabbed grade of AU50. Some with CAC stickers! But, the prices paid for each are significantly different. The customer sees a different grade based on what they are paying for it. Take a look.

[james.bannister]

hmm, so if I submitted a coin to PCGS because I felt it could possibly be a 65 instead of a 64 then the PCGS grader could say no that should have been a 63 thus undermining his colleagues - and the companys judgement and credibility. Why would the do that? why would anyone undermine the skill or judgement of a fellow grader. have you ever hear of such a situation? I just can't see it ever happening

[mhonzell]

As far as I know, ALL stand by the grade they originally gave their OWN slab.

But, if you want to see if you can get the coin graded higher, you will have to break it out of the slab and send it in raw. THEN, you take the chance of it being graded lower based on my prior comments. As a raw coin, the coin is "unknown" and there is no prior record to discredit the company or other graders.

[james.bannister]

Makes more sense that they would stand by their original grade. Ok they may not upgrade. But down grade! I mean that is what you said if your prior post :)

[mhonzell]

Okay, here's a test.

Imagine I take each of these out of their slab and send them back in. (Click to enlarge)

How would you grade them?

When they were first sent in, Grader A, who just got a raise, was being generous and graded the third and fifth coin the same as the first coin.
When sent back in, raw, with no tie to the previously assigned grades. Grader B, who is ticked at not getting a raise, now gives the third and fifth coin what grade? (The raise is only depicting a reason for an attitude. It could have been anything.)

Grader B is not going to hurt the company by giving the third and fifth coin a lower grade than before because no one knows what that grade was. It's a raw coin.

IF you looked at the article, you would see that all the coins were graded at AU50. Obviously, some of them were over-graded by Grader A. When Grader B receives the coins raw, he may very well give them a lower grade. Or, he may give them the same grade and actually give the first coin a higher grade.

There are "definitions" to each grade for a coin, but they are still subjective.
So, let's grade the coins another way. Which coin would you pay more for?

[james.bannister]

indeed. but it was made clear that the coins are sent back in with the grader knowing the existing grade. and the question was: if he had full reference to the current grade (in slab etc) would he don grade it. well if not clear that was my question. of course if the coin is sent in raw then that is a different ball game.

[mhonzell]

As far as I know, ALL stand by the grade they originally gave their OWN slab.

The only way a grader would have reference to the prior grade is if it was in it's original slab. (And, not a cross-over.) In that event, they will not change the grade: up or down. That would be staking the company's reputation on the whims of the grader.