3 Mint errors

[Paul]

hugeeyes any'outer rim'pics? hugeeyes

[Daniel]

Daniel pre 1970s coins before the great 1955 DD were seldom messed with due to the No value factor let alone it's also Canadian the value of these has just started to climb in the last 20 years this 1943 coin has been in my wife's grandmothers jewelry box since the late 40s and in my wife's jewelry box since 1979, and can be verified, I just thought it would be appreciated here for what it is. The quarter is also larger than a a normal quarter 24.5 mm and has a thicker rim 3mm than any I have seen which is physically impossible to fake, coins weight is 5.7 grams normal US Quarter mint specs are 24mm 1.75mm 5.67grams if the coin had of been messed with it would be smaller size-wise and weight, not bigger. As far as the nickel goes that is still being investigated.

When you understand the coin minting process then you're more than welcome to try to school me on mint errors but otherwise read the book I referenced.

People have messed with coins from the beginning, value had no factor in what people did to coins. I am a voice of experience, many years of experience, and how long you had a coin or whom it came from has nothing to do with authenticity. So you're incorrect on people seldom messed with coins before 1955.

The nickel has metal removed so it's going to way a bit less and minus .03 grams and that amount is within mint specs anyway. Not all planchets weigh exactly what they're supposed to weigh and you would see that if you would weigh all your coins. The nickel has been rubbed against something to make it look like this, it's PMD (Post Mint Damage).

The quarter is PMD as well, you do not measure the thickness of a planchet based on the rim, you measure center mass. The only way a coin is struck without the edge reeding is if it's struck outside the collar die, but when this happens the planchet is not retained during the high pressure strike and thus the planchet spreads outward, called a broadstrike.

You're quarter is not a broadstike and can't be a mint error. Again your tiny differences in mm's is not substantial to prove a coin is a mint error. You should already know based on how confident you talk that not all coins are exactly as the mint reports their specifications to be, the US mint allows small differences in weight, thickness and diameter.

I was giving your Canadian cent the benefit of the doubt and referenced you an invaluable person who is a world renowend mint error and variety expert. If he says the coin is a brokage triple strike then that's what it is, but until someone of his caliber claims that then the coin is not identified and has never been reported.

You might think you have it all figured out but you're not going to post coins in this forum and misrepresent them. No way will I allow you to confuse the truth for new collectors that come here by the hundreds each month and the 10's of thousands that visit my website monthly.

So you can edit your posts and topic to reflect the facts or I will be forced to do so myself.

[DialingFDollars]

I have read the books and some items are true some are shear speculation based on a minting processes that has changed greatly over the years. I have seen things in printing that have changed as well also. But I understand there are people who misrepresent by trying to make out on errors but that was not always the case. I have seen people throw a ream of paper into a running printing press out of anger, and I have seen a 8 million Dollar roll fed web press suffer major damage due to a simple paper detector light being broken and the paper wrapping around the rollers and snapping the drive gears. What I am saying stuff happens and it can't always be explained away so simply. What if your wrong? I do not do this for a living mainly because of an attitude that some know it all. You have Machines running for hours not everything can be caught. The triple strike Canadian Coin for one can't be explained away so easily. To create Dies to make the order of the strikes is simply outrageous and have the last strike on it be correct obviously means it had to be in the mint when it occurred. The Quarter is logistically impossible has to be real, in order to get rid of the detented edge it would of had to be tapped down pushing the rim into the letters or it would have to have been filed off creating a smaller coin not larger, simple logic, if what is not possible is ruled out the only possible thing is the collar failed somehow. and that would create a larger coin. Simple, the terms have changed a lot through the years also. If you do not allow this on your website, as I said I was just trying to show some examples. I have thousands of the typical ones, but I thought these would be different. By the way the nickel weighs 4.7 grams doesn't match any current coin blank weight. It is undersized slightly but the rim is slightly concave with a seam in the center with micro flaking pits in it.

[Daniel]

I know you haven't read The Official Price Guide to Mint Errors by the late Alen Herbert, if you did then you would realize your errors on these coins.

I don't care what other books you read this is THE one that counts the most and the THE most respected on errors and varieties. In the last 20 years mint error terms and facts have not changed at all but have been corrected by the help of Herbert's book and by people like Mike Diamond, Ken Potter and many others.

This is not about me or what I know but arguing with me is arguing with the masters on the subject because I only use the facts. Saying I know it all is like me saying 2+2=4 and you telling me it doesn't so I must know it all because I tell you you're wrong.

I just happen to know better than you because I study more than you and I don't need my coins to be mint errors for whatever personal reason you might have. You see, you're not talking to a newbie, no, you're talking to a man who's been at this all his life and has studied the facts.

There's only so many things that can happen in a coining chamber but there can be an infinite amount of slight variations and I mean slight but not that it creates a different error out of a known error. An error is unique, all errors are unique, if not then they're labeled varieties.

You're also not considering math here, anytime a person alters a coin then you're altering the size, shape and weight of the coin. A millimeter is one thousandths of an inch and your referring to .03 or .02 or .04 mm's and that's smaller and there's platings that are larger than that.

So saying a coin that's messed with can't be .03 mm larger is not factual, it can be because metal is being moved around or displaced. You also don't understand the millimeter or decimal point system based on what you claim.

Like I said, I am trying to open your mind to the facts but if you can't accept it then I will be forced to remove this topic since you're misrepresenting these coins based on flawed logic and evidence. This forum is for teaching first, sharing second, but if the sharing hampers the teaching then the sharing is eliminated.

[mhonzell]

Don't tell anyone, but when I was a kid, I used to scrape pennies on the sidewalk to make then smaller so that the pinball machine would accept them as dimes. They looked very similar to that nickel. I'd agree with Daniel, that nickel is PMD.

The quarter:
Here's a quote from Mike Diamond, which you were asked to seek with your Penny:
"If it lacks reeding and if its diameter is slightly greater than normal, it's a minor broadstrike.
-------------------------
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of."
(Highlighting is mine.) Your quarter MAY be a minor broadstrike, but I see some reeding marks on the upper picture of the quarter. No premium.

The Canadian Penny:
Daniel is giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not.
First, the incuse reverse brockage is a different year than the original coin. This cannot happen in the mint unless it was intentional. This was done by pounding another coin into the original coin.
An incuse reverse brockage on a machine requires the previously struck coin to get stuck in the chamber and then be struck onto the next planchet. Additionally, for the coin to exhibit the original reverse (as can be seen), the coin had to flip over after being struck once and then get a second strike.

This doesn't work because the obverse doesn't show any signs of the queen being struck on the obverse. The coin didn't flip. Again, the brockage is a different year than the obverse strike. It didn't happen at the mint. That makes the brockage PMD.

The obverse may have seen multiple strikes, but it was ruined by the reverse side work removing all credibility for the coin.

[Daniel]

Thanks M for pointing out my glaring error, I did NOT notice the 1941 date on the coin, good that you saw this.

I knew something was "off" but I overlooked the date. Thanks for commenting.

[Paul]

everyone reading this post, must keep in mind:
individuals that believe they have found a "very rare" or "unique/one of a kind" error coin, will believe so, no matter whom, or what company they may send it to,.....because that is their "mind-set". NOTHING will change their mind1..

i too have been at this a very long time (since 1970), so "send it to PCGS"....
quite often i hear...."that PCGS does not know what they are doing, THIS IS a such-n-such".....actually, for die vars & mint errors, i think they are the 'best at that 1 thing' for the companies that are currently available (who provide the attribution service, & encapsulate coins) to use.

what the issue is...you must understand the 'minting process'.......or, what is possible Vs. what is NOT possible,......from the raw planchet blanks start, to the out the door, finish of the packed/shipped minted coins journey.



1. I RECENTLY READ A ENTIRE CHAPTER IN A BOOK PUT OUT BY A VERY POPULAR 'COIN VAR LOOK-UP WEBSITE'.
THE CHAPTER WAS ON "COIN GRADING". OH MY! I ACTUALLY GOT TO 'LAUGHING OUT LOUD' AS I READ IT!!
"MINUS A 1/2 POINT HERE, ADD A POINT THERE"....IT WAS VERY COMPLICATED. SILLY STUPID COMPLICATED!
BUT, NOW, HERE IS THE THING.....YOU READ THESE WRITE-UP'S/BOOKS, & THIS BECOMES "YOUR MIND-SET",.....OR HOW YOU NOW THINK/BELIEVE......& IT'S INCORRECT. YOU CAN NOT "BOOK LEARN" THIS INFORMATION.
ANOTHER VERY COMMON MISTAKE, IS THAT YOU SEE A 'SIMILAR LOOKING' COIN, SEE/READ THEIR EXPLANATION, & THIS BECOMES THE 'MIND-SET' FOR YOUR COIN......WHEN THE INFO YOU SAW/READ ON THE OTHER COIN IS "COMPLETE HOG-WASH" :s

[DialingFDollars]

This line of reasoning is flawed. Some people should admit that anything is possible when it comes to errors. If a coin is damaged at the mint it is still an error at the mint. The upside down Jenny stamp was an error even though it printed great it the machine. If the coin is damaged not only in the die process or gets caught when ejecting after the strike it is still an error. Multiple strike coins are still errors even though it is not possible for it to happen to them in the single die process. In some of the books there should have been interviews with the actual people who worked at the mint years ago. I know the Die process and mint employees were not as perfect as some would have you believe.

[DialingFDollars]

By the way it is simply impossible for the the coin not to have been created at the Canadian mint RE: the triple strike alone it is a well known fact Written in older books that Mint employees used cull coins to clear dies or test them to save copper during the WAR. But apparently this is being overlooked with this coin. The coin was obviously stuck in the die hence the triple strike someone used a 1941 cull to clear it. Get your heads out of the books interview some of the old mint employees and learn something.

[Daniel]

By the way it is simply impossible for the the coin not to have been created at the Canadian mint RE: the triple strike alone it is a well known fact Written in older books that Mint employees used cull coins to clear dies or test them to save copper during the WAR. But apparently this is being overlooked with this coin. The coin was obviously stuck in the die hence the triple strike someone used a 1941 cull to clear it. Get your heads out of the books interview some of the old mint employees and learn something.

You're just not going to learn. You do not understand counter brokage strikes nor can you visualize what can happen and can't happen during the minting process so you can eliminate what can happen.

I don't need the books anymore I am in experience mode and have been for a long time, but YOU DO need the book I mentioned earlier. Mint employees are people and people are flawed and like to tell stories but when their stories don't jibe with what can physically happen then I know they're wrong.

You don't understand mint tolerances and allowances for coins, you don't understand the minting process, you don't know much about millimeters and the decimal system, and you think anything can happen at the mint but it can't and it didn't. If you have THE mint employee that created this Canada Cent at the mint to write a signed statement notarized or if you send it to an expert attributer and they say it's an error then I will change my mind.

You must have proof and mint statements and expert opinions before you can make the claims you're trying to make. As far as this topic is concerned the coins in question are NOT mint errors and until an expert looks at the coins and gives them a label then they will remain PMD coins.