Two Of The Most Common 'Early Date' Error Coin Mistakes
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___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You also agree to follow these guidelines. You must agree to these rules to be a member of this forum. NO SPAM! Spam is deleted within minutes, no spam will ever be left in our community.
1. Post a front and back image of your coin with a specific question about what you’re seeing or asking about and one coin per topic.
2. Please remove coin from the holder unless it’s US or an official mint case or unless it is graded by a grading service.
3. Images should be taken by a camera or cell phone camera, we ask that members don’t use images through a microscope screen.
4. Always start your own topic, please don’t ask about your coin or post your coin in someone else’s coin topic.
5. Do not send private messages about your coin unless an Admin ask you too and the same for sending emails through the board.
6. No spam. Do not post any links to your coin or other non-coin websites.
7. Always be respectful even if something makes you upset or you don’t agree with a member. You can always get a second opinion elsewhere. If you have an issue then politely ask an admin in an PM. PM’s are for issues, technical and personal, but not for coin questions (refer to number 5 on this list). Our community is not a soap box for complaining or drama, so please refrain from doing so here.[/size]
- Paul
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Two Of The Most Common 'Early Date' Error Coin Mistakes
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Last edited by Paul on Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- mhonzell
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Re: 2 OF THE MOST COMMON ERROR COIN MISTAKES
As PAHL1 states, the doubling on Longacre designed coins is fairly common and unlike strike doubling, can be seen to exist in more than one direction on the coin, sometimes producing an outline. On those dies that did produce the doubling (outlines), it slowly disappeared as the die struck more coins. (Or if the die was polished for any reason.) These can be difficult to distinguish from other types of doubling.
This attribute mostly went away with his death and use of the dies were discontinued. Most people rely on this doubling to be non-existant after 1886 when the hubs were changed, but has been seen on coins up to about 1908 since the same reverse dies were continued to be used until then on some coins, such as the Indian Head Cent.
This attribute mostly went away with his death and use of the dies were discontinued. Most people rely on this doubling to be non-existant after 1886 when the hubs were changed, but has been seen on coins up to about 1908 since the same reverse dies were continued to be used until then on some coins, such as the Indian Head Cent.
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Re: Two Of The Most Common Error Coin Mistakes
here is a perfect example of a 1880 indian head cent with a rather strong 'longacre' that also shows some very light 'metal flow' (where a little metal squeezed out from around the engraved lettering)
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Re: Two Of The Most Common Error Coin Mistakes
Mechanical doubling is caused during the strike, the Longacre doubling happens to the master die and is more similar to a doubled die than Mechanical doubling.
So this is part of the master die design and is most evident on well struck examples.
For those who don't know, the Master Die is used to strike and create the Working Dies, and the working dies strike the planchets into coins.
So this is part of the master die design and is most evident on well struck examples.
For those who don't know, the Master Die is used to strike and create the Working Dies, and the working dies strike the planchets into coins.
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Re: Two Of The Most Common Error Coin Mistakes
For modern coinage,it's a little more complicated than that Daniel. The Master Hub creates a few Master Dies, which in turn create many Working Hubs, which are then used to create lots of Working Dies. I only point it out so that people understand where the term Hub Doubling comes from.
Roger
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Re: Two Of The Most Common 'Early Date' Error Coin Mistakes
Glad you chimed in, and you're correct about modern coins, but I was mostly referring to the Indian Cent. You know how confusing it is to mention Master Hub, Master Dies, Working Hub and Working dies in the same sentence.
With Indian Cents the Longacre "doubling" is part of the initial design of the hub die and well struck dies often translated this doubling to a well struck coin. So it's extremely common since it's part of the master hub's design and any subsequent dies struck from the master hub.
With Indian Cents the Longacre "doubling" is part of the initial design of the hub die and well struck dies often translated this doubling to a well struck coin. So it's extremely common since it's part of the master hub's design and any subsequent dies struck from the master hub.
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Re: Two Of The Most Common 'Early Date' Error Coin Mistakes
you know guys, with the zillions of indian cents i've had under my scope hugeeyes , he did some really oddball stuff. it looks like there was no ryme or reason to the madness. sometimes just ONE letter, or ONE feather....but you can see as time went on, how he did more & more on the dies.
maybe this was just his way to 'sign' his name to the die?? nobody knows for sure........ :dunno
maybe this was just his way to 'sign' his name to the die?? nobody knows for sure........ :dunno
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Re: Two Of The Most Common 'Early Date' Error Coin Mistakes
I did some more research on this and I think I know the cause of Longacre's doubling. If you take a punch, or a working die or master die, and use some type of an abrasive to alter the inside and outside edges of the design's cavity, or the punch edges then this could create the Longacre "affect" you can see on his designs.
He might have abraded the edges just enough that only the best striking pressure would reveal the abrasions. Also uneven striking pressure would be the reason that only some parts of a coin shows the abraded doubling and other areas don't.
Maybe it was a method Longacre used to test strike pressure. For instance, if you could see the doubling on the struck coins then they needed to back off the pressure a little, so the die would last longer.
Has anyone else dug up anything else on this?
He might have abraded the edges just enough that only the best striking pressure would reveal the abrasions. Also uneven striking pressure would be the reason that only some parts of a coin shows the abraded doubling and other areas don't.
Maybe it was a method Longacre used to test strike pressure. For instance, if you could see the doubling on the struck coins then they needed to back off the pressure a little, so the die would last longer.
Has anyone else dug up anything else on this?
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Re: Two Of The Most Common 'Early Date' Error Coin Mistakes
:confused: I'm still trying to figure out the whole thing between Mechanical Doubling and Longacre's doubling . I understand the Mechanical doubling part but I'm still confused on how the Longacre's doubling is created . I guess some people have a harder time understanding things than others. I could just say " Ok" , I see, but I can't and maybe a more simple explanation of the Longacre doubling is necessary for me to understand .
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Re: Two Of The Most Common 'Early Date' Error Coin Mistakes
This is just repeating others, but most places support two possible theories:
The main design elements where put on the galvano and a reducing lathe transferred the design onto the master hub. The master hub was raised or incused, because the metal was removed to leave the design of the galvano. The master hub was then used to make a master die. The master hub was pressed into the die steel to form the master die, so the master die had a recessed design.
The engraver would then use a punch to place the outer design on the master die. If the engraver wanted to give the punch more detail, he could shave the sides of the punch, leaving a lip on the punch.
If the engraver hit the punch extra hard, the lip would be incused into the master die. Thus causing the Longacre doubling on the working hub, the working die and the coin.
The second theory is after the design elements were placed on the master die, the engraver would go back over the design moving the punch just a little. This would place a small lip on the die to help the metal flow into the die.
It is also believed that Mr. Longacre felt this would give the dies a longer life and provide more coins from each die. Helping to reduces the expense of die production.
Both theories would produce a rounded doubling, but it is not considered a doubled die because the master die is only hubbed once and there is no separation of the serifs. Machine doubling/strike doubling has sharp edges (the "cliff"), not rounded edges.
Longacre doubling is typically found on Indian Head Cents and Seated Liberties (even though Gobrecht designed the later.)
My personal theory... widegrin
One of the two methods above were adopted due to the original Longacre coins being made with Copper-Nickel. This coin's metal did not stamp well, so Longacre adopted a method to make details "stand out". (A means of pressure calibration for the machine with a visual cue.) After the switch to bronze, the method was already in place and just continued. Well.. it's a theory.
The main design elements where put on the galvano and a reducing lathe transferred the design onto the master hub. The master hub was raised or incused, because the metal was removed to leave the design of the galvano. The master hub was then used to make a master die. The master hub was pressed into the die steel to form the master die, so the master die had a recessed design.
The engraver would then use a punch to place the outer design on the master die. If the engraver wanted to give the punch more detail, he could shave the sides of the punch, leaving a lip on the punch.
If the engraver hit the punch extra hard, the lip would be incused into the master die. Thus causing the Longacre doubling on the working hub, the working die and the coin.
The second theory is after the design elements were placed on the master die, the engraver would go back over the design moving the punch just a little. This would place a small lip on the die to help the metal flow into the die.
It is also believed that Mr. Longacre felt this would give the dies a longer life and provide more coins from each die. Helping to reduces the expense of die production.
Both theories would produce a rounded doubling, but it is not considered a doubled die because the master die is only hubbed once and there is no separation of the serifs. Machine doubling/strike doubling has sharp edges (the "cliff"), not rounded edges.
Longacre doubling is typically found on Indian Head Cents and Seated Liberties (even though Gobrecht designed the later.)
My personal theory... widegrin
One of the two methods above were adopted due to the original Longacre coins being made with Copper-Nickel. This coin's metal did not stamp well, so Longacre adopted a method to make details "stand out". (A means of pressure calibration for the machine with a visual cue.) After the switch to bronze, the method was already in place and just continued. Well.. it's a theory.
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Re: Two Of The Most Common 'Early Date' Error Coin Mistakes
Thanks for adding the new material. Anytime the edges of a die's design is shaved like this then you get abraded die doubling. A hub has incuse design elements and the top edges can be abraded and make them appear larger, and the flat face of the die surrounding the design elements can be abraded as well.
An abraded die can be inside the design elements or out side the design elements and includes die punches. The 1955, erroneously called "poor man's doubled die" is a prime exampled of out side abraded die doubling, but not a doubled die.
So I wasn't off on what others have already thought.
An abraded die can be inside the design elements or out side the design elements and includes die punches. The 1955, erroneously called "poor man's doubled die" is a prime exampled of out side abraded die doubling, but not a doubled die.
So I wasn't off on what others have already thought.
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