Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

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budung
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Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#1 Unread post by budung »

Is this coin struck through grease or PMD. It looks like the neck and face of Lincoln is slightly affected as well as the reverse of the coin. Your feedbacks and opinion will be highly appreciated.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#2 Unread post by Daniel »

Looks like damage to me, lot of whiz lines from something abrasive.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#3 Unread post by Paul »

hmmmmmmm....... :dunno :confused: :dunno

can i see some better pics of the 'base of' lincolns bust plz ??
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#4 Unread post by budung »

Here is a pic of the base...
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#5 Unread post by budung »

If the anomaly was caused post mint by an abrasive the rim of the coin should have been affected. As it is the rim is perfectly normal with just the field affected.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#6 Unread post by Paul »

well, i can say that i've never seen this exact anomaly before....... :confused:

but, i will tell you what i see/think :
i do see these light 'brush marks / scrapes' on the base of lincolns bust, a patch at obv K7-8 near the rim,... on the reverse: under the 'A' in america, & what looks like some very fine "whisper-fine" looking brush marks around the 'O E' area of one cent.....
:eureka:
but seeing these marks up on a device (lincoln),.....
it leads me to believe "PMD" (post mint damage).....using your images only....IMO
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#7 Unread post by budung »

I am posting here an enhanced photo for better analysis. I also tried scraping a small area with a toothpick but the 'paint like substance' is hardened.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#8 Unread post by Daniel »

It's not a substance the surface has been abraded. It looks like steel wool or something was used on this coin's surface.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#9 Unread post by mhonzell »

I was thinking a wire wheel, but as OP stated, rim is not affected. Would be hard to abrade manually without hitting the rim.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#10 Unread post by Paul »

i agree with both d & m here....this is "PMD".
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#11 Unread post by PetesPockets55 »

budung wrote:I am posting here an enhanced photo for better analysis. I also tried scraping a small area with a toothpick but the 'paint like substance' is hardened.
Even if it is a "paint like substance" it would be PMD but could also explain how the rim, bust and other devices could be wiped down with a cloth to remove substance before hardening.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#12 Unread post by budung »

Being a newbie in coin collecting I would have sworn the anomaly on the coin is a paint. Daniel it really take years of experience and study to spot the difference. So I did a little experiment that shows the ff: It is not a paint or a substance after all, trying to duplicate the anomaly is very difficult specially on the almost consistent direction/depth of the abrasion and the clean shape of a quarter moon, the composite materials of the coin is very hard not, impossible not to affect the inner wall of the rim, and this Lincoln is a tough guy to bungle with. I used a sandpaper of the obverse and a sharp knife on the reverse trying to remove the letter T. Photos are attached.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#13 Unread post by budung »

Here are photos of the inside wall of the rim. This is as close as I can get with my camera.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#14 Unread post by budung »

My theory about this coin is that it may not be a PMD. In my photos it shows that the rim where the abrasion is, seems not to be affected. Likewise, the abraded area where the field meets the inside wall of the rim is neatly aligned. If it was manually made, a special tool should be needed to keep the consistency of the abrasion through out the whole length of the affected area. I think the abraded area was already present and extended up to the edge of the coin in its planchet stage. And when the strike made to form the rim, the abrasion was smoothen up when the metal was stretched to shape the convex form of the rim. Thus we have a smooth condition of the rim. I can not think of any other way the anomaly came about.
As stated photography is very important in this hobby, wherein unfortunately I have a long way to go. My photos are lacking in details and micro shots. I have seen real beautiful close up shots posted by our moderator, Daniel and other members. With better photos I am sure we can learn more from this unique coin. I am willing to lend the coin to our moderator if he would like a shot at it.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#15 Unread post by PetesPockets55 »

I have only been back in collecting a couple of years and I thought it was odd there are no marks on the rim also, but people do some odd things to coins to trick or fool others. Unfortunately the testing on it has definitely made it PMD now. It seems that if the "anomaly" had been on the planchet prior to striking there would be none of it on the devices (base of bust along the rim, E of WE, date, etc.) because of the pressure from the strike. And the die did form the devices as evidenced by the date being visible, even better after your experiment.
Also notice the color around the scratches and field near the rim at K7-8 (Thank you Pahl1 for that lesson to show locations on a coin) on the obverse. That area is darker and more oxidized than the "anomaly" which to me indicates the "anomaly" is a more recent abrasion.
And it could not be damage to the die (die scratches) because the scratches would not get to the deep areas on the die (date), which form the high points of the coin devices.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#16 Unread post by Daniel »

Anything incuse into the die will be concave or raised on the surface of the coin, and the lines on this coin are into the metal. I can think of a couple things that could be used to do this and a jewelers tools would be one, or someone could have your a fine grit, Dremel bit sander.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#17 Unread post by budung »

Why would anyone do this to a coin then throw it back into circulation. What would he gain from it. Often times photos are very deceiving. I hope to get a really close up picture of the area along the side of the wall of the rim.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#18 Unread post by Daniel »

Because people like to play and experiment and try to create mint errors; I've seen it all my life and have seen just about every experiment on a coin. People almost never gain from it, it usually doesn't work out so it becomes change.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#19 Unread post by mhonzell »

A pointed dremel bit is a good guess. Original owner may have been trying to see if he could clean a coin with it. This was just practice.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#20 Unread post by Paul »

i just can not give a "definitive answer" here.........
without first hand hugeeyes's on coin.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#21 Unread post by pocketchange »

Before the hardcore brainstorming begins, I was wondering if anyone noticed that the "brush" marks on the obv and rev sides are in exactly (??) the same direction on the coin.
This hints to me that they were probably made at the same time and by the same devise, which excludes an electric toothbrush.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#22 Unread post by budung »

If the owner wanted to clean the coin he would have stopped after a few strokes due to the given results. Experiment maybe - but for what. I guess PALH1 is right. A real good close up photo of the coin may give us some answers.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#23 Unread post by Paul »

pocketchange wrote:Before the hardcore brainstorming begins, I was wondering if anyone noticed that the "brush" marks on the obv and rev sides are in exactly (??) the same direction on the coin.
This hints to me that they were probably made at the same time and by the same devise, which excludes an electric toothbrush.
100% out of left field guess here......
this cent may have been used as a "shim", for round metal stock of some sort,....
& the stock "shifted" a scootch..........leaving the "semi-circular scrape mark"??........IDK, :dunno :confused: :dunno
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#24 Unread post by mhonzell »

If I wanted to learn to clean with a dremel, what coin would I use? Yes, the results are not what is desired, but how do you learn? You keep going.

I'm leaning in this direction due to the random trailing lines on the left edges of the "defect". It's a ragged edge.

As others stated, if it was on the die, it would have been raised above the normal face of the die to create this incused area. Not likely.

Polish marks on the die would have dug into the face of the die. Since the last digit of the date is missing, and that is incuse to the die, that much polishing would resemble a cud. A significantly raised area in the field. The digit would not be lower than the other digits.

The combination of random trail marks and the missing digit indicate PMD.

I don't think that's what you want to hear, so I'd recommend sending it in to ANACS for a variety diagnosis and then get back with us.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#25 Unread post by budung »

I don't think the problem is on the die. I guess the abrasion was already on the planchet when it was struck. Good suggestion mhonzell, I might just do that for whatever its worth.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#26 Unread post by budung »

Ops I stand corrected on my last post. Abrasion could not have been on the planchet else the motto would have covered the abrasion.

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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#27 Unread post by budung »

I copied this image from the website of "http://lincolncentsonline.com/filleddie.html". The statement following these photo states "Errors like the last two shown above can be confusing at times. Grease filled dies or low pressure strikes? Since the rim is formed during the strike, and these examples have full rims, they are struck through errors and not weak strikes".
There seems to be a similar anomaly with my coin. Opinions and comments will be highly appreciated.
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#28 Unread post by mhonzell »

Grease-filled and low pressure strikes do not result in a ragged edge or varying intensity of the lines to the area in question.

(Cropped area of your coin. Look at edge of area and intensity of various lines.)
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#29 Unread post by Paul »

mhonzell wrote:Grease-filled and low pressure strikes do not result in a ragged edge or varying intensity of the lines to the area in question.

(Cropped area of your coin. Look at edge of area and intensity of various lines.)
:agree:
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Re: Untrusted 200?? Lincoln Cent

#30 Unread post by budung »

I greatly appreciate your feedback and support.

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