PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

Post anything about coin grading holders, questions, images, facts announcements. If it's in, or about, or is a coin holders this is where to post it.

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PALH1
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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#2 Unread post by PALH1 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:38 pm

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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#3 Unread post by PALH1 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 3:40 pm

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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#4 Unread post by Daniel » Sat Dec 07, 2013 4:55 pm

Since you're convinced it was struck with a proof die then I would at least try to get PCGS to label it as a problem proof, that would make it better.

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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#5 Unread post by PALH1 » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:13 pm

100% BUSINESS STRIKE, you must have missed the second em i sent.
not a impaired proof here. chemically altered surface to simulate the very rare PR3 CAMEO.

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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#6 Unread post by Daniel » Sun Dec 08, 2013 1:15 am

Yeah I missed something. I don't know what you do with it.

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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#7 Unread post by PetesPockets55 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:48 am

Palh1, I take it this is not yours but you are trying to help document all the reasons it is not a PR3. With the surface scratches and debris/haze left on the edge of the coin where they neglected to alter that area.
It certainly appears the grade on the holder is correct. Nice details but certainly cleaned/altered.
It looks like who ever did alter it thought the eventual purchaser would only use the 5x magnification to determine grade/value!!!!! Of course it needs to be viewed under high magnification to see the deception, which is not available when bidding online.
And then the grading service "ruint" whistling2: everything by seeing past the alteration.
May be a ridiculous question, but does the PR3 designation stand for Proof 3?

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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#8 Unread post by PALH1 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:00 am

i actually just bought this :s
notice the "92" on the 'slab'? that companies designation for "cleaned".
i did hugeeyes look around for a number, if they had it, for "altered surface". they do. that # is "94".
is there a 5,280' difference between "cleaned", & "altered"?........
"you bet your bippy" (a negative numismatic phrase)....i regard this as bad as "tooled". here, a chemical was used to change the atomic structure of the metal,...."altered".
i have several of these 'teaching aids' from various companies. too many actually.
i bought this one as i have 'picked' several 'mis-labeled' proofs in slabs with 'MS Business Strike' designations over the years...rare?...yea, but they are out there, you just need to know exactly what to look for.

the PR3 (proof die #3) for this date was a 'cameo'. very collectable. even impaired. listing pics showed 'just enough' to fool/trick you. he got me....& i'm GOOD at this.

JUST 1 THING.....
if there is JUST ONE SINGLE THING i could ever teach anyone, that they would ever remember:
coins are encapsulated (sealed in a plastic 'slab') for ONLY 4 REASONS.....

1. authenticity.
2. preservation.
3. variety attribution (IF they even recognize 'that variety', & in that die state)
4. proof designation.
-----PERIOD!-----

this is my finest example of a not only cleaned coin, but a coin that has it's surfaces chemically altered...& still encapsulated.
quote: "the modern day collectors have become sheep, & their shepard is a 'slab label' leading them blindly through the numismatic collecting fields".

of the 87 "GRADED" pre-1900 small cents that i collected, 72 of them show solid, concrete,
un-disputable microscopic evidence of surface cleaning. this is NOT A SECRET, it is a plain fact that 98% of 'slabbed' coin buyers just refuse to admit. high grade inspection setups still require a substantial monetary commitment, but are now available to the general public.

with the birth of the 'world wide web', coin buying, selling, & trading was exposed to an unlimited market. the need for an independent 'third party' to certify coins as a 'genuine U.S. mint product', brought about the creation of ANACS. with the allure of the 'quick buck' income, combined with the lack of quality imaging equipment AT THAT TIME, early date coinage was 'cleaned' to provide better internet images. as we have become a 'visual' buying consumer, the prettiest picture always wins. with the advancements of computer technology, & image manipulation software, it is now standard practice to 'fix or improve' the actual images you are useing in your purchasing decisions.

with the ever increasing need to fill 'market gaps' within the profit generating business community, & the genius marketing strategies used to earn your dollar, what was once considered an "investment return hobby", became B-I-G BUSINESS.....with the sole intention of generating profits for stockholders. within the past 7 years, 'coin grading' companies have become huge 'high volume processing warehouses'.

if you are purchasing 'graded coins', or 'coins in holders', i recommend you spend only 1 hour of your busy fast-paced life doing the following:
choose your favorite 'search engine', & surf with specific keywords. get creative here. of course, a 'company name', but maybe include words like: 'scam'; 'con'; 'undergrade'; 'preferred'; & 'lawsuit'.....these are just 'suggestions', like i said, "get creative here". you will find 100's of pages, 1000's of blogs. a vast majority of them will be disgruntled submitters, bashing grading companies, venting, or blowing off steam......why?....because they just don't know "what" coin grading is....much less so, "how", "why", & "when" to have a coin 'encapsulated'. you will need to 'sift through the on-line blabbity-blab', to find bloggers such as myself, that are experienced C-O-I-N collectors, not S-L-A-B collectors.

IMPORTANT NOTICE:
as a numismatic educator, i am not "pointing fingers", "placeing blame", or "accusing anyone", of any "wrongdoing or deception" in ANY OF MY POSTS HERE ON CH. the information & opinions made by me, ARE ALL ME. like it, hate it, disagree, or disapprove....they are posts with factual photo-documentation to 'TEACH' you something...............

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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#9 Unread post by Daniel » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:36 am

Okay, now I am less confused here. When you first showed me the coin I was convinced it had been cleaned, but since you thought different I just mentioned that possibility, hoping you did see something I didn't.

Anyway I think some of us often know too much when we're looking for mislabeled or possible varieties and see something or miss something, so we can all get fooled every once in a while. I know I have.

As far as the slabbing companies are concerned I do agree for the most part. It IS a business that rely on profit and that creates a fine line between what's ethical and what's profitable, and what's good for numismatics or bad.

These services have so many coins passing through and so many different eyes and opinions looking at coins that it's not surprising we see what we see. I can personally prove and attest to buying an upgrade for a coin from the top grading service. It shouldn't be that way, no matter the claims made by the service or any expert in the field.

If anyone doubts what we say then I would be willing to personally prove with images, certification numbers, etc.

I don't do that to try and make collectors hate or stop using grading services but to put the entire business of certifying coins into an honest perspective.

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Re: PCGS 1882 IHC PR3 SIM-CAM ALTERED SURFACE

#10 Unread post by PALH1 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:48 pm

i'm glad daniel chimed in here....
daniel confused?....i don't think so...
daniel dis-kon-bobulated?....i think so, but this usually happens when is on a 3 day binder, managing this site, in addition to all the other things that need to be done (noticeable by 'verbiage & typos').

knowing too much? yes, at times it can throw you off. 'seeing' what looks to be a 'pup' (pick-up-point), but is only a 'glitch in the image pixels', or a 'mark/crud on the coin', that is in the 'exact location' where the pup should be, & has the 'same size/definition', does hurt when "picking".....at times. (i usually go 9-17 times before a successful pic run ends) then junk like this happens.

slabbing as a business?..........you "pay a fee for a service"......so....

quantity and/or volume.....do you see the 'tonnage' each month coming out the doors?

"grading" is a combination of letters & numbers that each grader uses to describe the "eye appeal" of the coin, TO THAT SPECIFIC INDIVIDUAL. there is NO STANDARD BENCHMARK REFERENCE POINT for comparison. it is the "goofiest", most genius marketing ploy i have ever seen. just 1 example (of 100) here: a fully struck, razor sharp, perfectly centered hit, & NOT ONE microscopic itty bitty nick on it may "grade" MS62 due to some 'surface haze' or a bit 'off-color',....yet, a late die state coin, with weaker details & numerous 'contact marks', & having a 'vibrant cartwheel' from later die state fatigue, "grades" MS65.....because it 'looks prettier' ( i laugh when i see the + or * designations).

is there any other business that even offers, for an additional fee, a "we messed up, pay us again, maybe we will get it right this time" fee on the menu?,... or more simply, "send us some money, & we will up-grade it for you". can you imagine that when you arrive home from your auto mechanic, you notice they screwed up,..... & when you go back the next day......you hear "i can fix it for $xyz". huh?

by no means what-so-ever am i saying not to "encapsulate" your coins...with anyone. you should. i do, with NGC. because i need them safe for long term archival storage. PERIOD.
AG(-1) to PF71, "don't make me no never-mind". i use NGC only because they have THE BEST QUALITY PLASTIC RECTANGULAR COIN CONTAINER, i think, 'on the market today' (that could change tomorrow / but if they made 'roundy tops' so you could 'see the coin year & denom' like ANACS, when their in my storage boxes, i would like them even more). THEY ARE ONLY A C.O.A.

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