Wheats vs Memorial: Grade Scales

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diana.dentoni
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Wheats vs Memorial: Grade Scales

#1 Unread post by diana.dentoni » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:22 am

Hey coin people, Diana here...I've been collecting for about 10 yrs now, really collecting the past 2 yrs or so, and with all the websites and coin shops and guides and books and other collectors...I have been getting conflicting info. So..I ask this group/community... Are there differences in grading earlier coins vs. newer coins. I've been told no, but read yes... (More leniency on better grades for pre 50s)?????? Thanks in advance ;)



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mhonzell
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Re: Wheats vs Memorial: Grade Scales

#2 Unread post by mhonzell » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:53 am

Welcome!

Good debate topic!
Here's my two cents...
If I lived in the 50's and was grading coins, they would not have been slabbed. The standards among collectors were pretty high and those older coins that were assigned choice bright uncirculated had to meet the standard. Along come investors, who were a minor portion of the hobby always trying to get more money for lower standards. Third-party graders step in as an intermediary in an attempt to hold the standards high and encapsulation of coins begin. But, as these companies grow, the collectors begin to rely upon the TPG for grading while the investors scam the system by re-submitting coins frequently between the groups in an effort to get one point higher on their coin. Basically, the TPGs don't have the same set of standards and they were being influenced by the bottom line. We've calculated that an inspector spends about 5 seconds looking at coin at arms length before putting it in a slab.

Collectors start realizing this and you will hear the call, "Buy the coin, not the slab."
The TPGs go through phases of correcting the standard, but in general, I'd tell you that a high grade given today is not as good as a grade given in the 50's.

Meanwhile, the minting process is dramatically improving. Cameos used to be the result of the first 1-200 strikes on a pair of dies before the die started "wearing" in. Now, the mint can use lasers to create three-kinds of cameo on the die and the cameo effect persists until the die is replaced. The process for making blanks is improved. The rate at which coins are made is much faster. And, proofs are made in the millions instead of the tens.

Knowing the process, you may think a bit of leniency is given to the older coin as there was little chance it could make a 70 grade even on a fresh pair of dies and struck as a proof. But, the TPGs actually seem to get the older coins more correct and tend to be lenient on the modern coins. I think it has to do with the sheer volume of submittals. There are many more 2009 coins being submitted than 1890 coins. At least, that is what I see happening.

A third aspect to grading is the size of the coin. Larger coins can have more nicks and scrapes for the same grade as a smaller coin. Just look at a MS-63 Morgan and an Indian Head Cent. You'll be scratching your head.

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Re: Wheats vs Memorial: Grade Scales

#3 Unread post by Daniel » Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:11 am

I agree with all of Mark's points above and would add that as far as copper coins are concerned the experts used to grade them more conservatively. EAC Early American Copper is a very conservative approach to grading copper coins and less of a market grading entity. You often see their grades quoted during the auction even though the coin is graded by PCGS or NGC; because PCGS and NGC graded the coin higher.

I don't think you can say over all that coins where graded more strict in the past or less now, but that there were periods that PCGS was considered more conservative in their beginnings and the same with all the major companies then and now, out of business or still running.

You also can't determine how much of this is wives tails and collector/dealer perspectives based on what they keep hearing or what is being said publicly among the dealers, media and collectors.

So my answer is sometimes yes they were more conservative in the past, but sometimes not, and obviously, as Mark stated, more modern coins tend to achieve higher grades on a regular basis because the minting process is more perfected and Q&A is more strict.

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Re: Wheats vs Memorial: Grade Scales

#4 Unread post by Paul » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:25 am

my gotcoins:

"grading" is 'valuation' of "eye appeal"(to that individual grader) ... with a loupe?,... without a loupe?...... & what if that 'grader' is a "kennedy cameo proof lover", & he is 'grading' your 1828 1/2 cent ???

what is "blanket grading"? hmmmmmmmmm........

we could go on & on,.......
as mark mentioned, "BUY THE COIN, NOT THE SLAB".......
& if YOU personally like the coin, who cares what the slip of paper inside the sealed plastic container says......

PAULY-LAMA SAYS =
"SLABS ARE THE MODERN DAY SHEPHERDS, LEADING THE BLIND THROUGH THE NUMISMATIC FIELDS"

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Re: Wheats vs Memorial: Grade Scales

#5 Unread post by mhonzell » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:02 am

PAULY-LAMA SAYS =
"SLABS ARE THE MODERN DAY SHEPHERDS, LEADING THE BLIND THROUGH THE NUMISMATIC FIELDS"

widegrin lol: :l :l :l lol: widegrin
:agree:

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Re: Wheats vs Memorial: Grade Scales

#6 Unread post by diana.dentoni » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:25 am

I love it!! Thank you guys for your two cents.. So it's really just... All in the eye of the beholder.... I get it.
Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to many nights me on this site with questions and pictures ;)
Have a good one!!!

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