What does casting look like?

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RomanGreekCoins
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Re: What does casting look like?

#11 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

thanks! those 3 coins. what detail proves that the other 2 are fakes compared to the real one?

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Re: What does casting look like?

#12 Unread post by Paul »

:yourock: M ............ :trophy:
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Re: What does casting look like?

#13 Unread post by mhonzell »

RomanGreekCoins wrote: what detail proves that the other 2 are fakes compared to the real one?
The first coin is more obvious due to the porosity. This coin would at least make me question its legitimacy. Closer inspection, in hand, made this one obvious... and weight not matching a known coin. It is important to understand the minting process and how the planchets are made. Bubbles in the metal or burst bubbles in the metal are red flags.

Casting Ancient Coins Video

The second coin is tougher. Compared to an original, the design is almost correct, but there are varieties to this coin. It needs to match one of the known designs in all its details.Look at the differences in the details in the leaves compared to the real coin. The hammered flow marks are not present in the ridges surrounding the square field for the owl. The color on the fake is uniform... false patina, colored. But, more importantly, this is the perfect reason that a coin cannot be determine legitimate by photograph alone. It was determined fake by weight and dimensions.

Real version of this coin:
a.jpg
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Re: What does casting look like?

#14 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

Wow thanks for all that information.

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Re: What does casting look like?

#15 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

is this edge that is starting to come off evidence of casting? or environmental?

Mark Antony Legion VIII
18mm

2.73gram
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Re: What does casting look like?

#16 Unread post by mhonzell »

This looks like a debased Roman coin. During certain periods, the Romans made silver-plated base metal coins. You are seeing the silver plating broken off.

Cleaning these coins is next to impossible as the silver will crumble and the finish never looks good.
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Re: What does casting look like?

#17 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

i remember something about how Antony used less silver in his coins to help pay off the armies going against the Parthians. and later right before facing Octavian @ Actium

so this is without a doubt genuine? just plated to save money

thats why it is only 2.73 grams? compared to 2.9- 3.7grams that most of these coins weigh? base metals with silver plating?
Last edited by RomanGreekCoins on Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What does casting look like?

#18 Unread post by mhonzell »

The book:
Roman Silver Coins : Volume 1 by H.A. Seaby
Can be found on Amazon for less than $25.

Each example I found of this coin weighed between 3.5g and 3.8g. But, depending on which mint produced these, a denarius at the time could range from 2.3g to 3.8g.

From the author, in regards to these Legion coins:
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Re: What does casting look like?

#19 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

thanks!

what kind of metal was used under the silver?

so you wouldnt call this a fourree since Antony actually order it minted himself?

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Re: What does casting look like?

#20 Unread post by mhonzell »

Mark Antony's legion coins were debased by mixing with 10%-15% copper. The metals were melted together and all made this way were in the 3.8g territory. Many millions of these coins were made and in common circulation. Mark Antony had 23 legions with 4,800 men to a legion who were paid 225 denarii per year in three installments. The coins were minted in both Prataes and with the use of a mobile mint that travelled with Mark Antony's elite legion. There have been examples found indicating coins for additional legions, up to legion 32. This was likely a ploy of disinformation to make the enemy think Mark Antony had many more troops.

Altogether, that is 25 million coins a year.

The coins were very well circulated. They were even found buried in Pompeii being used as currency 100 years after they were originally made. They were also significantly counterfeited at the time. Those counterfeits were made using far less silver. In those mixtures, the silver is known to leech to the surface of the coin where it becomes brittle.

So, you may have a coin that was counterfeited during Marc Antony's time of rulership. Think of it as an authentic ancient forgery.
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Re: What does casting look like?

#21 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

oh i see thanks. Ive seen some coins that are even NGC certified that are ancient imitation back then and are still valuable

If this was made by anthony does this make it even more valuable than a solid silver coin since we can narrow down the EXACT time that it was minted ( compared to just an era for most coins when someone reign?)

for example if this coin was a money of necessity then this Mark Antony coin appears to have been made autumn 32BC to Spring 31 BC while Antony was was minting coins of that he needed to pay his troops off to keep them happy right before the historic Battle of Actium?( sept 31BC) ?

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Re: What does casting look like?

#22 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

the metal looks a little bit like it was mixed with copper.( its less silvery undernearth but silver all the same

does Antonys money of neccessity be considered an authentic forgery? it was still made during his reign under his approval.

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Re: What does casting look like?

#23 Unread post by mhonzell »

Mark Antony did not make the forgeries. Counterfeiters did.

Value of a coin depends on condition, availability and demand.

Your coins condition is Poor.
If it was one of the legion coins, then it is one of millions made. Meaning there may be a lot of these available to a collector.
If it is an ancient forgery, it is less available, but is anyone collecting ancient forgeries... No demand.
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Re: What does casting look like?

#24 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

ok what about this CF Pansa denarius?

looks porous as you said . evenly....
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Re: What does casting look like?

#25 Unread post by mhonzell »

I'm not trying to be rude, but...

1. Start a new thread for each coin.
2. It is nearly impossible to determine a fake ancient coin by photo unless it is very obvious.
I do not think this one is fake.
3. If you are questioning the authenticity of this many coins, the the problem is not the coins.
If you don't trust the dealer who sold them to you, then get another dealer.

I am happy to identify and share history on any coin.
Authenticity is determined by knowledge of the minting process, pedigree of the coin, and trust of the dealer. And, I don't have the last two for any of your coins.
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Re: What does casting look like?

#26 Unread post by Daniel »

Mark is correct, we do prefer a new topic for each coin, but also there must come a time when you don't question authenticity so much and are buying from a reputable dealer and not random ebay seller (if that is what you're doing).

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Re: What does casting look like?

#27 Unread post by RomanGreekCoins »

Sorry I will in the future

normally I would but i just thought its part of the same topic( examples of cast fake coins vs genuine). I am trying to figure how the ways to identify coins that are cast fakes here.

Ill do that next time. thanks!

regarding trust the problem is that. even the most reputably dealers could have a fake coin here and there unintentionally .

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Re: What does casting look like?

#28 Unread post by PetesPockets55 »

RomanGreekCoins wrote: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:18 pm Sorry I will in the future

normally I would but i just thought its part of the same topic( examples of cast fake coins vs genuine). I am trying to figure how the ways to identify coins that are cast fakes here.

Ill do that next time. thanks!

regarding trust the problem is that. even the most reputably dealers could have a fake coin here and there unintentionally .

Very true, but the difference is you will be protected by the integrity of an honest, reputable and professional dealer if you find out it is fake. They should gladly refund you money because that is what will keep you coming back to them.

Hope this doesn't digress too much but I would say most of us here have a interest in US coinage mostly and have been learning a lot with this thread, thank you for posting them. The internet has made it much easier to ask questions and learn at a quicker pace.
Twenty or thirty years ago this thread would have been a conversation between two individuals over the course of multiple visits and months (at a coin club?). The rest of us get to "eavesdrop" on the conversation and learn at the same time at a much quicker pace. We even get to learn what the questions are or form ones of our own in the area we are interested in.

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Re: What does casting look like?

#29 Unread post by Daniel »

As far as cast coins are concerned that is easy for me to ID, the edge of the coin will have a seem and since the coin was not struck it will have porosity from air bubbles through out the coin and on the surface, plus the alloy used with not be dense and compacted.

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Re: What does casting look like?

#30 Unread post by M@Sulivn »

look for a casting seam or any wear variation that looks like filing down a casting seam.

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