CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
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___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
You also agree to follow these guidelines. You must agree to these rules to be a member of this forum. NO SPAM! Spam is deleted within minutes, no spam will ever be left in our community.
1. Post a front and back image of your coin with a specific question about what you’re seeing or asking about and one coin per topic.
2. Please remove coin from the holder unless it’s US or an official mint case or unless it is graded by a grading service.
3. Images should be taken by a camera or cell phone camera, we ask that members don’t use images through a microscope screen.
4. Always start your own topic, please don’t ask about your coin or post your coin in someone else’s coin topic.
5. Do not send private messages about your coin unless an Admin ask you too and the same for sending emails through the board.
6. No spam. Do not post any links to your coin or other non-coin websites.
7. Always be respectful even if something makes you upset or you don’t agree with a member. You can always get a second opinion elsewhere. If you have an issue then politely ask an admin in an PM. PM’s are for issues, technical and personal, but not for coin questions (refer to number 5 on this list). Our community is not a soap box for complaining or drama, so please refrain from doing so here.[/size]
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CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
My question is "Clash or Struck over another token/coin?" :confused:
I got this token in a roll from a regular seller of mine.
Obverse- "Redeemed at DL WING & CO., Albany NY
Reverse- "UNION FLOUR"
(Orientation is Coin alignment, not medal.)
For those not familiar with Store Cards or Civil War tokens, there were dozens of Obverses and Reverses that the different manufacturers would combine together to fill an order. So this makes my error attribution dilemma more challenging. Only the more dramatic errors draw much interest.
On the obverse, arcing above and below the D.L. I noticed light, raised design elements that got me thinking this token struck over another token or at the very least, a clash between the hammer and anvil dies. The secondary design doesn't appear to match the reverse of this coin.
I don't know how to do overlays and if anyone here does, feel free to use my images to complete one to see if this might be a result of clashed dies.
I noticed the reverse die had a strike through a thread I thought, under the R of FLOUR. Then I noticed what appears to be an incuse design element (stem w/flower bud) due east of the same R at the rim.
I'm not familiar enough with all the different reverses to tell which design (if it is another token) might be hiding behind the more visible obverse and reverse.
Thanks for looking and any and all comments. Cliff
I got this token in a roll from a regular seller of mine.
Obverse- "Redeemed at DL WING & CO., Albany NY
Reverse- "UNION FLOUR"
(Orientation is Coin alignment, not medal.)
For those not familiar with Store Cards or Civil War tokens, there were dozens of Obverses and Reverses that the different manufacturers would combine together to fill an order. So this makes my error attribution dilemma more challenging. Only the more dramatic errors draw much interest.
On the obverse, arcing above and below the D.L. I noticed light, raised design elements that got me thinking this token struck over another token or at the very least, a clash between the hammer and anvil dies. The secondary design doesn't appear to match the reverse of this coin.
I don't know how to do overlays and if anyone here does, feel free to use my images to complete one to see if this might be a result of clashed dies.
I noticed the reverse die had a strike through a thread I thought, under the R of FLOUR. Then I noticed what appears to be an incuse design element (stem w/flower bud) due east of the same R at the rim.
I'm not familiar enough with all the different reverses to tell which design (if it is another token) might be hiding behind the more visible obverse and reverse.
Thanks for looking and any and all comments. Cliff
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
It's a die clash with some die fatigue issues and then wear from being handled has worn these features a bit making it more confusing. I like these finds even if they're not rare, just makes the hobby more interesting.
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
Thanks Daniel. That's what I was leaning towards.
The parts that threw me were the incuse elements on the reverse (UNION FLOUR). Not really much in the way of raised items. Most of these types of tokens are known for their lack of quality control and severe over use of the dies.
The semi circle under the R, the "Flower bud" to the right of the same R and then there is another faint area that is visible in the fifth image. It goes from under the upper far right of the F of FLOUR to the left side of the Bow of the wreath at the bottom. I thought this could have been a lamination, but not sure since it goes "under" the tip of the F.
I know these incuse elements could be a lamination, struck through a foreign object(s) or even PSD.
Do you have an assessment of the incuse elements?
The parts that threw me were the incuse elements on the reverse (UNION FLOUR). Not really much in the way of raised items. Most of these types of tokens are known for their lack of quality control and severe over use of the dies.
The semi circle under the R, the "Flower bud" to the right of the same R and then there is another faint area that is visible in the fifth image. It goes from under the upper far right of the F of FLOUR to the left side of the Bow of the wreath at the bottom. I thought this could have been a lamination, but not sure since it goes "under" the tip of the F.
I know these incuse elements could be a lamination, struck through a foreign object(s) or even PSD.
Do you have an assessment of the incuse elements?
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
I love these finds as well! As you said, it can be very difficult since the dies are oriented by hand and the owner could have been using any combination of dies on hand when the clash occurred. Some people figure them out.
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
Thanks Paul.
I was having trouble mentally [ummm... now where was I ... oh yeh widegrin] visualizing the reverse overlayed onto the obv. I was forgetting to mentally reverse the direction of the stems, visualizing them flowing up. Whereas, in reality, as your overlay shows they flow downward. Just like the token.
I gotta chuckle at myself when I get "enthusiastic" like that. Cliff
ps. My paradolia makes the little incuse "flower bud" on the reverse look like Audrey II from "The Little Shop of Horrors" when she was young and cute. You know, before she got teeth. lol:
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
I was hoping I had a really interesting one for you Mark.
I'll keep plugging away.
Cliff
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
I don't know if you remember this one, but I found one that had incuse lettering behind the currently raised lettering. You can make out the ampersand clearly and what looks like "ORY" in reverse, but that's not enough to identify it. What is known is that it is not either of the two dies raised on the token.
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
The incuse "flower/4 leaf clover" on yours made me think of the "Flowers" on the "It must and shall be preserved" tokens, even though they are definitely not the same. (Link to your thread of the same)
So that means this would have been an incuse design element on the original token?
Most tokens usually have raised (in relief) design elements, don't they?
Hmmmmmm........
So that means this would have been an incuse design element on the original token?
Most tokens usually have raised (in relief) design elements, don't they?
Hmmmmmm........
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
I was thinking the incuse was a prior brockage, so they re-used the token.
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Re: CWT/Store Card Struck over another Token/Coin?
Ahhhh. Don't know much about them and never thought of a brockage imparting an incuse detail but now that you mention it....That would make sense.
Thanks for sharing that tidbit.
Thanks for sharing that tidbit.
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