Ethics

[mhonzell]

Where do you draw the line?

I came across a coin on eBay listed as a 1912 $20 St. Gaudens graded by PCGS as MS-62. There was simply a picture of the slabbed coin's obverse and a write-up describing how Roosevelt went about authorizing this coin. BUT, in the Details section, the coin was listed as a UK Sovereign and the price was slightly below raw price for a $20 gold piece.

So, I wrote the seller and asked if this was a St. Gaudens, or a UK Sovereign?
The listing was closed and the reply was they were fixing the listing and, yes, this was supposed to be a UK Sovereign.

Two days later, I came across a 1912 $20 St. Gaudens graded by PCGS as MS-62. There were pictures of the slab and close-ups of the coin, along with the Roosevelt write-up. In the Details section, the coin was listed as "Pre-1933 US coin", etc. The price... the same as before, (same seller, same coin) slightly below raw price for a $20 gold piece. I bought it and it is being shipped, though it was delayed in shipping for over a week. (I had to send a polite question on when it would be shipped.)

(Raw $20 St. Gaudens gold pieces selling as bullion going for $1,380-1,435. My price was below this, but above actual melt value.)

All their other gold listings (many!) appear to be priced correctly for eBay, but there are some minor mistakes in some of those listings as well.

1. What do you think I'll get?
I kept photos of the coin and used a bar code reader to identify the PCGS holder. (They blurred out the number.) So, I know what I bought.
2. Did I cross the ethics line?
I had previously "warned" them and they stated they had "fixed" the listing.
or, Did I make an expensive mistake?

[Daniel]

Hope you paid using paypal. If it's an authentic gold coin then you should be in good shape, but getting a fake would be my concern.

I am interested to see what you get, but don't see that you did anything wrong. However, you did take a risk.

[mhonzell]

Yep, I used eBay/Paypal for this one, in case.

Will post actual photos once received, so everyone can say "What a dork", or "Awesome find."

[dipper13]

You did not cross the line. If the bar code reader was reading a Saint, they would have to be very sophisticated crooks to fake the coin slabs correct bar code, yet no # to match to it. If you were taken, you have insurance from PayPal. Sellers on EBay or any where are supposed to know what they have. I have bought coins from sellers at flea markets that gave away items they did not realize were big $. If I dealt with an one timer selling dads stuff, I educated them. If it was a sleazy dealer, I enjoyed the good fortune...

[Paul]

is the "door open" now....?

ETHICS ?.....the "TRUTH BOMB", in a 'open forum' platform?.....but still HAS TO BE A SOFTBALL!
i know what you have said D, & i get it.....of course "NONE OF THIS INFO IS A SECRET",... ALL the info is out there...
the 'sheepeople' just either don't take the time out of their busy lifestyle to "learn it", or just don't believe that ..... "oh, they can't do that"....
& is why you see what you do today regarding numismatics.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE $$ PEOPLE....MAKING A PROFIT....GENERATING A HUGE INCOME FROM THE
"UNDER-EDUCATED BUYERS"....& THAT NASTY "G" WORD, GREED....
THE GREEDY PREYING ON THE LESS-FORTUNATE GREEDY....BECAUSE, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. PERIOD!
i can show everyone rock solid, concrete, indisputable, tangible (coin in hand) proof.

i'm sure many 'regulars' have seen some of my posts showing these, but had to stop.....even after redacting as much information as possible in those 'posts', several 'self-proclaimed numismatic EXPERT coin super-heroes' have searched out, & tracked down these sellers....sending them nasty emails, filing complaints, & pointing them to the 'specific post here'.....with my only intention being one to try to "teach" the masses of "what to be aware of"....& then, used that info to "sell coins". why? M-O-N-E-Y ! ...
to make money off of unsuspecting buyers. i ask 'COIN SELLERS' easy questions all the time...questions even the novice buyers should know....& the answers i get....WHEW!
i send these Q & A's to D & M all the time....the "seller" responses i get are incredible!
just recently, i was told by a seller, that the "error" they were selling was so "RARE", that if you "googled it", you would not find any information on it.....'because it was that rare'.

ETHICS...............HMMMMMMMM :l :s

[Daniel]

LOl, I loved the Google response P. So if Google can't find it then it must be rare (sarcasm alert). Why not think this instead? "If Google can't find it then you've mislabeled the coin, or it's not even an error, or maybe you need to learn something?"

LOL all the way home. I could not laugh hard enough at this.

Oh and I am French Model :l :l :l :l :l :l

[mhonzell]

Okay, p

I have to say you lost me on that one. I wanted a 1912 $20 St. Gaudens to complete a set of 1912 coins.

Are you saying I was greedy for going after this deal? Or, are you questioning me for wondering if I crossed the line? Just because they do doesn't mean I want to.

Yep, it was a risk, but I didn't enter it that blindly. My goal is the coin and I'll be able to verify it once here or get a refund. All I've lost is time if it falls through. (I hope.)

[Paul]

D, i had no idea you were 'french'....

M, i was only going from the 'post title'....i hope you pick'd big.
there is nothing better than pick'n a lying, cheating, scammer, looking to steal someones $$.

[mhonzell]

I'm thinking I got the coin $500-$700 under. I'll know better in two days. happydance:

[Paul]

:thumbsup: nice.....

& i've nipp'd a few IHC "proofs" in TPG holders "graded MS" also

[Paul]

here is an EXPERT explanation of the 1857 FE FS-403 OBV $20 CLASH
hugeeyes

[PetesPockets55]

Fantastic, love the idea of the bar code reader. (Just checked online- under $30)
M, you did NOT cross any ethical line. You brought incorrect information to the sellers attention and were the high bidder on their re-listed auction. Their intentions are very questionable. Time will tell when you receive your St. what their true intentions were. (Hope it is good news for your 1912 set.)
Makes one wonder why would a seller blurr out the number? :confused: Do you think they will send a different coin than the one in the images? Or are they hiding the number from someone (Their Grampa, law enforcement?) It will be interesting to see what you have gotten.

[mhonzell]

I read the cert number with a free barcode reader app I put on my phone.

[PetesPockets55]

I read the cert number with a free barcode reader app I put on my phone.

Even better.

[Paul]

HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHY"....:

*any/all TPG 'legal actions' are almost impossible to find?....
*why are 'coin dealers' included in "operation choke point"?....
*on-line 'coin grading links' price values "jump around" prior to, & after larger volume marketing campaigns?....
*there is no 'public' information on "failed takeovers" in the numismatic industry?....
*EF45 is considered 'the cut-off line' for "registry sets"?....
*you see TPG coins selling for $8, or $9 from mass volume submitters?....
*there are 'over the top price jumps' in "price guides", for just 1 up-tic in 'grade'?....
*'that coin', which is the "same denom, date, mm, & grade", from the same company, "sold for" $400 more than mine?....
*what was the 'real reason' the "largest on-line auction site", parted ways with the 'worlds largest on-line payment service'?....
*what does "First Strike" really mean?....
*your 'true full attribute variety coin' was not attributed as such, & was "not labeled" with the attribution?....
*why 91%(+) of "modern day coin buyers" are "slab collectors"?....
*why a 'vast majority of post 2007 graded coins', are sold with only a "full slab image"?....

[mhonzell]

Your "expert" from eBay said it all...

By the time I was done reading that, I had no idea of what the question was.

[Paul]

sorry m,
i guess the 'question', about the "question",....should be about 'questioning' ......things......"WHY?"
'why this', why that',.....'how does this happen', 'why does that occur'.....ever "listen to a 6 year old"?
no one questions anything anymore...that's why we see all the endless prolific 'scamming' these days.

for this variety, you will need a "MULTIPLE SPECTRUM ANALYZER"
hugeeyes this!

[mhonzell]

It wasn't your question that led me to confusion, but that "expert's" understanding of what went wrong in the mint with his coin. No wonder no one reads the descriptions.

Here's what I boil it down to:

There is only one person that must be the expert if you want to get nice coins for a good price: YOU!
That means YOU have to research the coins by reading books on them, understand the minting process and die manufacturing, actually look at thousands of coins in the type you want to collect, and yes, even understand the different results obtained by photographing coins in different manners. Find another expert to confirm your understanding and ASK QUESTIONS. THEN, buy the coin.

I know... the addict in us makes us buy things before we understand. That's human nature. Don't you find it funny that after you buy the coin, then you ask if this is what you bought?
Just try not to go for the top coin before you understand what you are looking at.

Probably the least understood aspect of becoming that expert is to actually handle the coins you want to collect.
I don't care how many IHCs I've handled, there is nothing like picking up a copper-nickel cent. The thickness and weight are so unique. The first thing I think of each time I do is the Ancient Greek coins, but how do I know that? I've handled them also.

WIth that, there are only two coins I feel comfortable buying raw:
Any Indian Head Cent and 1868 Shield Nickels.

Pretty limited, ain't it. With all that history I know about coins, these are my only true "field".
For those two groups, like Paul and his FECs, I have searched thousands of coins, bought only a few, and even returned a few.I will soon return to Indian Head Cents to start pursuing the varieties and proofs. I have had very good fortune finding varieties in IHCs whether they are raw, or unattributed in slabs. (Yeah, a lot of seller's don't know what they are selling.) That's how I got a Top 50 Morgan Dollar...(my only Morgan) ...it was unattributed in the slab.

So, I return to the topic... Ethics.
I gave out a IHC as a prize to one of my contests. It was in a paper holder and labeled as a possible variety. When the winner received it, he contacted me to make sure I hadn't made a mistake in sending him a variety. I told him I wasn't sure on the variety and the coin had been previously cleaned and it was simply a bonus coin for winning. That's a relationship between buyer and seller.

If a seller cannot, or will not communicate with you, doesn't accept returns, makes their profit through shipping, provides only stock photos, shill bids, etc. You can pretty much categorize where that seller fits in the scheme of things. I will only purchase from these if I find something exceptional and feel I can force getting what I see listed. It's a risk and I have been burned by it. But, usually I come out ahead.

If a seller has reasonable prices and appears to simply have made a mistake, I will send a question to the seller. The response usually determines my next actions. In the case of the gold coin that started this thread, it was a toss-up... they made a mistake and then "corrected it", but it was still greatly under-priced. They did not accept returns (but, they really do under certain circumstances) and their communications were terrible. Would I shop their store again? Maybe.

[Daniel]

Very good post M! :thumbsup: